Hi Susan
I tried to begin replying to you earlier but ran out of time. Yes, it's a risk to have a convo here about this, but I think we're good. :)

Yong Pal - I believe I know what you mean. For me as a viewer, I look to see if they are just going to waste our time with repetitions and fillers or whether each new thing introduced really adds to our knowledge or understanding of the story or the characters. I look also for character growth, for where a character is flawed or good and if they become better or worse and are redeemed. If there are relationships to be explored or a romance then the getting together of the people should be convincing and natural.

IRY - I kind of get what you mean by them abandoning the high concept. So I ask myself why I did not find it boring. The reasons, I feel, are those that I've mentioned above for Yong Pal... those things that I looked for I found in IRY. I believe that while the initial episodes drew me in, what was more compelling to me was unraveling what made, who were and how to 'live with' psychopaths. The show got me invested in the individuals as persons with concerns and reactions, some of which were relatable and others obscure and intriguing to me and I wanted to solve the riddle of those persons. Very quickly when we knew who Min and Joon Yeong were, I thought of them as persons I wanted to get to know better, persons whom I wanted growth arcs for and some kind of resolution for the pain that they had suffered, while at the same time justice for those who were their victims. The relationships that enabled these were thus compelling to me, and I was privy to the revelations and the feelings of the characters as these played out. So I was a happy camper the whole show, getting what I wanted and feeling that I was respected as a viewer. A big plus point to me!

I'd actually have loved to have read your take on the technical aspects, but that's OK, since you did not watch the 2nd half.

As for OMG, I feel that there's much less meat to it but the simpler focus of getting the OTP together and what do we do with an evil spirit is either being well portrayed with little loss of time or on the brink of being explored. It is still tight enough and progressing and hasn't fallen into a mess yet, the way Mask did. So I'm happy with this show too. It could do more of a reveal to the rules of possession though.. but perhaps even the writers themselves never got that down properly.

As you said, ultimately it's really whether watching a show increases the enjoyment of the viewer or not and that is what counts. I feel that the joy of a large, well informed viewership is no small measure of how good a show is (ie sans the technical analysis). Anyway, I'm glad that my uber enthusiasm gets to rub off somehow LOL! Read ya again!

Part 1

Wow! What a detailed response! Now I feel bad for responding so shortly. I'm in the middle of a big edit - our writer kind went off in her own direction and now we've got to rework a lot of things to get back on track. By today. :-) Always!

So, if I understand your viewpoint - it's the emotional arc of characters that draws you in the most. Your second focus seems to be the intellectual premise of the drama. Every actor would LOVE you!!

For me, the thing that I find the most enjoyable is the creation of the story world. For the benefit of anyone else who is reading, a story world is that complete coherent universe that the characters live in. It comprises the main narrative, the side stories of all of the characters - not just the main ones, he background stories of the main characters, the places characters go (locations and background), the clothes they wear (costuming), the foods they eat, etc etc. And lots and lots of research on anything that the drama touches upon - gangsters, space travel, corporate takeovers, sniping, ballroom dancing, kindergarten, fashion, etc. etc.

Basically, a story world is everything that comes together to make you BELIEVE in the drama. It's when these elements really come together well that audiences completely immerse and really get into a show: My Love From the Star, Misaeng, The Return of Iljimae, Pinnochio, Two Weeks, City Hunter, Healer…. Didn’t you actually accept that Manager Do was really an alien? I did. Did you believe that someone like Healer could exist? Or City Hunter? And that they could do all those things? I did. And THAT is the power of a really beautifully constructed story world.

The biggest and best franchises also have theses: Harry Potter, Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings… think about all the characters and sides stories and research and how crazy the fans get who show up to conventions and argue about all these elements! That’s the power of a great story world - or story universe - it’s totally immersive and believable.

Accompanying a story world is a story bible. This is a big document (production website) that contains everything in excruciating detail. As one friend of mine in the industry describes it, it’s the plane crash document. Imagine if everyone who ever worked on one of those big franchises got into a plane crash - all the writers, directors, producers, etc. Some intern could pick up the story bible and go to a studio and, from this document, the entire story world could be recreated and new stories written and the audience would say, “Yep! That’s the franchise I like!”

Part 2

So, I guess, to answer your earlier question about what gets me annoyed from a technical standpoint with dramas - the biggest thing is inconsistency - characters who were developed in the early episodes and are changed in later episodes without a believable mechanism for this to happen (IRY) and stories that drop earlier plot development and go off the rails (Mask). My second biggest pet peeve is when a new writer comes in mid-series and, more or less, doesn’t read the story bible. That’s when you get someone taking the story in a new direction that isn’t consistent with the earlier plot development and remaking the characters so that they act in ways that aren’t consistent with their earlier development. More or less, this is like bait and switch. The aud came in based on one premise and one set of characters and now is getting something else that looks like the old drama, but acts differently. Kinda like its been possessed! :-) (SWWTN is beginning to do that.)
Consistency is all about the story world and the story bible. And just to cut off the obvious comment from someone who wants to defend their favorite dramas - no it’s not okay to just change the story world midway through production. It’s also not okay to have gravity not work halfway through your day. If we’re going to believe something, we need to be able to rely on it. And I’m pretty reliant on gravity.

@news

Will you tell me what you like about Jdramas as compared to Kdrama? I'd really like to have your insights.

Growingbeautifully: and how to ‘live with’ psychopaths.

That's actually part of what hooked me - especially the slow realization that Lee Hoon Jo wasn't exactly mentoring Min, he was managing him.

Hey Susan!

Nomu nomu kamsa-hamnida!!! Thank you for again taking the time and trouble to give me such a detailed reply in the midst of your busy schedule!!

I really love to read you. You give me so much to consider and help me understand how to analyze and appreciate what I watch.

As always, I end off in awe that so many dramas are made that actually pass muster, since so much effort is required to make a show good.

One conclusion I come to, stated simplistically, and which is also close to what you said before, is that it's fortunate many people enjoy with both head and hearts. Where a show fails on the head level, if viewers are more of the heart type and feel a degree of emotional satisfaction, much that goes wrong technically is forgiven.

I find it interesting even, that what you say became inconsistent in IRY, worked for viewers like myself and is deemed not a problem or mistake. I wanted Hyun to become less cold, calculating and rigid,... and when he did, I was happy without thinking why. I put it down to the fact that he was actually a warmer person to begin with but had put up the cold front over time, and was now being warmed up by his meeting persistent, characters like Ji An, who wore away his hard exterior. It appeared more as a slow transition and did not jar, but I know what you mean ie that he was never 'shown' warm as a child so what made him warmer as an adult, mid-way into the show is not so evident.

I agree that the huge inconsistencies in shows like Mask do disturb me. Fortunately the love story and (as you said) the chemistry of the OTP enabled the show to retain many viewers. The feels were so good where the romance and the pathos over Mi Yeon were concerned, so that I believe many of us watched mainly for this and were not invested in the revenge. It was a pity because it began as a compelling story with so much potential.

I'm not watching SWWTN, but if you want to expound on it or other shows that are doing good or bad jobs technically, I'm always going to be interested on reading you. Catch ya again!

@harmonyfb

Yes, the hook for me will be the people and the relationships. How they are together and apart, the dynamics that play out because they are together and how it would have been if they had been apart or with someone else. I would have liked to have dabbled more in sociology (big groups rather than individuals) and definitely touched psychology, but these are peripheral interests. I'm just going to be an armchair analyst of a few shows and of a few individuals... if I can even manage that. LOL!

It was a very slow realization ... I think I did not use those words to myself until I read what you said. Joon Yeong took Min away to save Hyun from managing a little monster, and he was not convinced that Hyun as an adult could handle Min, now a big monster. But Joon Yeong never knew the power of love. That is why he is both pathetic and unforgivable at the same time and strangely, even likable. :)

@GrowingBeautifully

If you want my thoughts on SWWTN, my comments are up for episode 12. Actually, I've commented on most episodes. Up through 10, it's all been joking around - the community there has been enjoying the unintentional camp and good looking actors and very pretty costuming.

There was a writer addition at episode 11 - which could have been a real godsend because the show has had plotting problems, only they chose the absolute worst writer in all of Kdramaland - the one who did Liar Game. So, it's a complete disaster.

It's pretty clear that the the writers divided up the scenes, with the original writer doing all the romance and bromance scenes (very nice) and new writer (the Liar Game guy) writing the plot scenes. The characters now have very different personalities in different scenes. And bc the LG writer is ignoring the story bible, there's no continuity. Some big plot elements are the same, but he's pretty much undermined most of the early set up already (it only took him 2 episodes to do A LOT of damage!)

Most of the people who were joking around on the thread there have left after the writing change. (It changed the tone quite substantially.) Too bad, bc it was really fun!

And there's been no one interesting like @Growingbeautifully to chat with about technical elements. Everyone I've chatted with either can't or won't understand how writing works.... :-( Le sigh. Oh, well! Maybe I should be doing work anyway....

Did I tell you our main writer decided to write what she wanted instead of following the plotting brief, requiring a major last minute edit? She's a good egg, she just got consumed by her art! Then our art director's computer blew up this morning. Our UX designer needs to get us some drawings, but is in a cabin in a remote woods in Canada and can't get internet access. LOL! I'm like a little pillar of calm during a production melt down all around me..... :-)

You know those lines from Shakespeare in Love?

Philip Henslowe: Mr. Fennyman, allow me to explain about the theatre business. The natural condition is one of insurmountable obstacles on the road to imminent disaster.

Hugh Fennyman: So what do we do?

Philip Henslowe: Nothing. Strangely enough, it all turns out well.

Hugh Fennyman: How?

Philip Henslowe: I don't know. It's a mystery.

I've been saying something equivalent to everyone all day! :-)

Hi Susan
Oh what an entertaining post and good for my ego as well! LOL!

That's amazing what you quoted about the theatre business... very funny, but very apt. That was what I wondered since the two of us discussed how so many things are supposed to work together in order to have a good and successful production, ... when I considered the throngs of people involved, and that so many artists who may not agree have to work together and there is the possibility of errors everywhere.... I wondered how any production was successful. And yet, here we are, with new shows every 2-3 months, movies filling our theatres, performances on stage ... it's amazing what people can do together.

Thank you for considering me an interesting companion on these threads. :) I see myself as one trying to appreciate each show that I choose to watch, beyond the surface of the work, and trying to understand why I like or don't like something, or why something can be considered good or not. You have been a generous and invaluable companion in this endeavour of mine. That is why I thank you profusely! You are a gem!

I know I will not actually be watching SWWTN or even seriously reading recaps, but what you have written here has already given the kind of information I would not have thought of, and it explains why other shows have gone awry in the same way. It is enlightening. :)

In an environment where there's so much to do that we need to divide the work, I take it that it will be ok to divide up the writing this way, if all the writers were committed to the story bible? But it is so hard to do that even if I alone wrote... (I write some technical stuff sometimes) everything... I find that I can't even be consistent myself LOL... but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Now that you mention it (we can go on discussing for ages)... I'd be interested to know if and why you feel that the Liar Game writer made the Liar Game less good than it appears to be. It's really something to be considered the "absolute worst writer in all of Kdramaland" :D

Yes, you did mention needing to do emergency editing. Did you have to do it yourself or did you sit with the writer to do it?

It's good to be the one who can be calm when everything is falling apart around you. I kind of feel that I've that sort of personality as well. At least, I try not to react without thinking. Have a great weekend (at work I imagine) and I hope your show all comes together mysteriously, perhaps, but well! ?

@Growingbeautifully

What kind of technical stuff?

Hi Susan,
I'm starting us on a fresh upper level comment #41 below.

It's getting a bit irritating (to me) to have to scroll up so far, looking for the reply button. :)

Ah, I wondered if it was science. I have a background in science and always like discussing it....

You mentioned something earlier that I can explain,

"I find it interesting even, that what you say became inconsistent in IRY, worked for viewers like myself and is deemed not a problem or mistake."

Put this together with your next statements

"I wanted Hyun to become less cold, calculating and rigid,… and when he did, I was happy without thinking why. I put it down to the fact that he was actually a warmer person to begin with but had put up the cold front over time, and was now being warmed up by his meeting persistent, characters like Ji An, who wore away his hard exterior."

What happened here is that the show did not explain itself, so you imagined a reason. Fans do this all the time. It's the explanation for which seemingly sh*t shows have legions of fans. The fans create the back story and character motivations so they can explain away implausibilities and continue to enjoy the show.

It's actually a great thing - :-) - it saves many a show from shoddy development.

The flip side of this is when it goes awry. Let's say a group of committed beaners all love a show that's got issues. Maybe the OTP is has A LOT of chemistry even though the lead actress is significantly underplaying her role. So, when its mentioned that she's a bit limited in her emotional depth, they defend all the reasons that she would want to do this and what she must be thinking or feeling and how the show will go a certain way. But then, the show doesn't quite go that way. The writing suddenly goes all over the place and not the places that the audience expects - betrayal! The fans had expectations which weren't met. Expectations based on their own constructions of how the show should be, but expectations nonetheless. So, of course, they are upset. Ooops!

That's the flip side. If a show doesn't explain itself, it risks disappointing (and losing) it's audience. And would you rather let the audience make all your decisions, or work them out yourself?

Hi Susan
That's great to read... it makes clear now why it is an issue that changes in characters and plot are given some reason... logical, I presume.

BTW, can you tell me why the Liar Game writer is the worst, as you say?

Correction: "it makes clear now why it is an issue that changes in characters and plot are NOT given some reason"

@Growingbeautifully

Yes, I'll come back and explain what was wrong with Liar Game during the day when I need a break.... I've got to go manage solutions that crisis I was mentioning..... :-)

@Growingbeautifully

I'll get here eventually, keep checking back. It will be quite a few hours before I get a chance though.

I do like that we found a dead thread to chat on. This way we're not bothering anyone.

Hi Susan
We have also 2 other alternative places for nice comfortable discussion(s).

1) Healer recap thread Episode 20, last page. A few of us go back there often and continue conversations about anything.

2) You can email me. I've given out this email many times, and have no problem with spam. I continue keeping in touch with a Beanie or two by email. [email protected]
:)

Good gracious that's a long thread you have over at Healer!!

If you don't mind, let's stay here. That looks like a pretty close group you have other there and I don't want to intrude.

Email is always fine, but I must admit that I like having our discussion here rather than on email bc we can always send someone to it later if we think we'd like to share it.

I promise to get back to you on this topic (LG) sometime today or tomorrow. At latest Tuesday. :-)

I can always do short responses while I'm working. Especially ones that don't detract from my train of thought.

Btw - did you go back and look at My Love Eun Dong? That one was done very well start to finish.

Hi Susan, (re-post because earlier post went to the wrong spot!)

I’m starting us on a fresh upper level comment #41 below.

It’s getting a bit irritating (to me) to have to scroll up so far, looking for the reply button. :)

Thanks. (I'm going to have to look these up.) AND I forgot, I enjoyed Jang Kiha and the Faces "I heard a rumor" from Heard it through the Grapevine" that I searched out the band and now have a new favorite group.

You're welcome Wag_a_Muffin. :)

My Secret Hotel OSTs [Full Album] – "Secret" by Yoon Sung Ki featuring Lee Sori of Twillerce, "My Secret Love", "Lost in Love" by Neon Bunny, "Tiktok" featuring Edan, "Bell Boy" by Han Na, "Ppuing Ppuing" featuring Jo Young Hoon, "Who Is The X", and "Trap" by Swings and Yoo Sung Eun

Angel Eyes OSTs – "Beautiful Sad" by Han Soo Ji and "Run To You" by Lasse Lindh

Discovery of Love (aka Discovery of Romance) OSTs – "It's Strange, With You" and "I Miss You So Much" by Acoustic Collabo

Continued...

Personal Taste OST – "My Heart is Touched" by SeeYa

Miss Korea OSTs – "New World" by Every Single Day, "Hero" by J-Min, "Street of Angels" by Every Single Day, and "Take My Hands" by Every Single Day

Cheongdamdong Alice (aka Alice in Cheongdam-dong) OSTs – "Daddy Long Legs" by Baek Ah Yeon, "In Your Hands" by Lee Kyung Sik, "Love Like This" by K. Will, "Blue Moon" by Moon Sung-Nam, "Dream" by Lee Kyung-Shik, "Gypsy" by Jung Cha-Shik, "Farewell" by Kang Hee-Chan, and "It's Okay" by Luna

I read some of the editorials and articles on the Korean English language papers. Some are quite interesting if you are interested in the culture. One article even went so far as to claim that one reason younger couples moved overseas or as far as they could get was to avoid "family interference" from the in-laws. But permanents emigrants are not a huge factor - a couple thousand a year. For me the most interesting part of the various surveys and editorials is how they differ from dramas. 3 good articles on this page http://english.chosun.com/svc/hotissue_list.html?code=The%20Buzz

Agreed - and the odd thing is that nobody seems to have caught on yet what is happening there.

When you're forced to respect someone higher than you..especially one who is not worthy of respect...of course you become hypocritical and angry and repressed about it. I suspect the culture is full of people who are truly respectful of elders, people who are worthy to be respected as elders, and people who are tired of having to respect someone simply that person is your boss, MIL, hubby, etc.

Carole - I am sure the situation is not near as horrible as portrayed in dramas. But I think it is worse than most of Korean society will admit.

Agree - I just wonder how much of the awful portrayal of elders is intentional, (not so) veiled revenge, or nothing more than writer fixations.

Another side to the typical k-drama romance with jerk vs naive candy girl is how will they be getting along 10, 20 30 years from now? Will they turn into the monsters and mutual-haters as their parents?

Not to mention that if the husband treats his wife like an 'underling', he's already made that marriage unsuccessful. Successful marriages are partnerships; unequal marriages (not talking about class or religion here, but ones where one partner is placed above another) are not happy marriages. Unhappy marriages = fail.