Moon Lovers: Scarlet Heart Ryeo: Episode 18

1,026 October 25, 2016October 25, 2016

by HeadsNo2

There are no shortages of bitter pills for Su to swallow this episode, and for the most part, she seems to base her decisions off what’s best for So and his fledgling rule. At the same time, his being king requires him to make some tough decisions, and Su has trouble understanding why the man she loves can’t always be benevolent. Basically, it just sucks to live in Goryeo.

EPISODE 18 RECAP

When Princess Yeonhwa declares that she’ll be marrying the king, Su says she won’t believe it until she hears it from So’s lips. Yeonhwa takes the time to school her on the politics she knows nothing about, telling her about all the opposition So now faces as king—including all the powerful families that now seek to dethrone him. Where were these people when we had two mad kings on the throne?

Regardless, Yeonhwa notes with a sigh that while Su may be happy to wait in the king’s quarters, a woman who’s happy with only that cannot become queen without endangering the king’s position. Also, there’s the scar issue to take into account, which is why Yeonhwa proposes that the two of them merely coexist when she inevitably becomes queen.

Wook tells So much of the same thing, making sure to mention the scar. But, he adds, if So really wants to marry her, he can… only if he gives up the throne. So what’ll it be? “I will not lose either,” So says confidently. “I rose to the throne in order to acquire everything. Do you really think I would cast Hae Su aside over a scar?”

That’s when he points to his own face, to the scar hidden beneath the makeup. “I became king with a face like this,” he reminds Wook.

We get a quick cut to a quiet dinner with Su and So before cutting back to So at court, with yet another official telling So all the things he’s already heard. The only solution, in this day player’s opinion, is for So to marry Yeonhwa. All his problems will disappear that way.

Still, So remains steadfast in his decision to marry Su. Next up to state the obvious is Queen Sinjeong, who gives her two cents about what So should do in order to keep the throne, adding that she even cast her own son out so that she could do what was best for the nation.

The queen hands over a book written by Su, filled with symbols no one recognizes (Hangul, which wouldn’t be invented until 1446) as proof that she’s not normal. Again, So claims to not care about such things. “What is so great about this seat?” he mumbles, causing Queen Sinjeong to note that the only way he’ll leave that throne is if he dies.

Su tells Chae-ryung that her wish to stay in the palace has been granted, but she soon gets pulled away by Astronomer Choi. He laments that this tower used to be so full of life when all the princes would gather and visit, pointing out all the things each prince liked best. But those times are gone now, which is why he’s brought her here: “You must give up on marrying the king.”

He says that she should be the one to end things since So will remain stubborn until the end, but Su meekly protests that she doesn’t want to. “I’ve been through a great deal and waited a long time. I only did so because I believed I would be happy one day. If I were going to give up like this, I would have given up long ago,” she says.

But Astronomer Choi asks her to remember all that’s happened in this palace, and all the danger the king is now in. The only way to prevent more tragedy is to consolidate power around the throne, and he very bluntly says that Su is not the person to help So do that. Su starts to have trouble breathing, and puts a hand over her heart.

Su goes into the king’s quarters with a huge smile on her face and something hidden behind her back, which she reveals to be masks. She wants them to go out to the market and have a bit of fun, and proposes that they disguise themselves in order to leave the palace.

So out they go, with the town all lit up for the exorcism rite festival. She teaches him how to pinky promise, and he takes her hand as they walk, like a true couple. At one point, he pulls her into a backhug and kisses her on the cheek, and there are smiles all around.

She takes him to the prayer stones she piled, causing him to jokingly asked if she did so to pray for him to propose. She unabashedly says yes, considering that he said he’d propose to her at the prayer stones. So says that she should’ve run away when she met him, and she fires back that she did run, but he caught her.

“I don’t remember what drew me to you,” So says. “There are so many reasons now. I have to live with you. Let’s live together. Marry me.” He waits for her reaction, but as her eyes slowly well with tears, his expression turns concerned.

“I cannot,” Su replies. (You could have tried leading with that.) “I cannot do anything for you except to provide you comfort. It will be hard for me to marry you.” Angry now, So asks who’s been putting these ideas into her head, though he stresses that no one can force him to give up on her.

She says she won’t give up either and will continue to stay with him, but that if she became a queen, she’d be too constrained by palace rules. She promises that she’ll be all right as she touches his cheek, and So says that she can’t leave him even if he can’t marry her.

“I will not let you go,” he continues. “Because you are mine. You can’t go anywhere—I will never allow it.” Then, pulling her into an embrace, he softly adds as a tear rolls down his cheek, “You are my only queen.”

Cut to: So and Princess Yeonhwa’s low-rent marriage in front of a meager audience. Wook leads the celebratory cries of “Manseh!” at Yeonhwa becoming queen, even as Su tries on the bride’s wedding hanbok for herself, looking longingly at her reflection.

Jung and his mutton chops find her at the prayer stones, as he claims he also wasn’t invited to the wedding. He jokingly asks if she won’t just come to him now, offering to take her far away if she were to ask him. If she ever wants anything, he adds, all she has to say to him is, “I want it.”

So unveils his bride in the marriage chambers, and gives her a long silent look before turning away from her. When he does, she warns him that Su could be used against him in the future, so getting rid of her now might be best.

He cuts her off there, telling her to focus solely on being queen. Burn.

Chae-ryung finds Su still at the prayer stones later that night, offering her an herbal pouch(?) to ease her suffering. They reminisce about Lady Hae and her prayer stones, which has Chae-ryung thinking of her late mother, who suffered from illness before she died.

Su kneels down next to her and prays to her own mother, repeating over and over again that she’s doing fine. Chae-ryung knows better and takes her hands, as So watches them from afar.

Later that night, he stands outside Su’s room, but can’t bring himself to open the door. She just stays curled up inside.

Now that So’s married Yeonhwa, his vassals finally show up for court, and So’s all smiles as he decides to adopt the era name for his reign as Gwangdeok. Everyone’s agreeable to this and his other decrees, save for one: Wook still wants the king to relinquish his control over the nation’s finances.

Surprisingly, So agrees to Wook’s terms, and declares that he’d like to spend some time reading important literature while his loyal ministers help run the government. He cavalierly declares that fourteenth prince Jung is guilty of treason and will be stripped of his title and sent to his maternal family’s hometown, which gets a rise out of Baek-ah.

But So continues as if he were discussing the weather, adding that he’s not going so far as to execute Jung—that’ll only happen if he steps foot within the capital.

Of course, when Queen Sinmyeongsunseong hears of this, she collapses. Baek-ah tells Su and Woo-hee the news, explaining the severity of the punishment. Su’s knee-jerk reaction is to try to talk to So in order to help Jung, but Woo-hee warns her that she doesn’t have the authority to do so. For now, Baek-ah says, they’ll just have to wait until the king calms down.

Yeonhwa calls on the ailing Queen Sinmyeongsunseong, who only wants to see Jung. But it’s So who comes to see her first, decreeing that only he will see to his mother’s care from now on.

He tends to her like a son while she can only stare up at him, wheezing. His use of the word “Mother” has her struggling even harder, though her power is now limited. Jung is still refused entry to the palace.

Over dinner that night, Su asks So to allow Jung to see their mother, but So slams his chopsticks down as he calls her out for sending for Jung—he’d forbidden anyone from sending him messages, so he knows that only she could’ve done it.

She admits as much, but claims her reasons are just, since the queen is on her deathbed and Jung deserves to be there. But So is adamant that Jung can’t take one step into the palace, or it’ll be his execution. “If Jung is allowed into the palace,” he warns her, “I will not let it go, even if it is you.”

Jung stands outside the palace gates in silent protest until he can barely stand anymore. Baek-ah passes him a jug of water as he goes into the palace, but Jung only pours it over his head.

So tries to spoon medicine into his mother’s mouth, but she keeps her lips clamped firmly shut. She’s been doing as much for five days, refusing to take even a sip of water, and turns away from So’s touch like a possessed person from a crucifix. The only word she manages to repeat is Jung’s name.

But So tells her to take stock of the son who’s actually caring for her now, not the son in the afterlife, or the one who can’t even be with her now. He is king, and he is taking care of her.

The queen opens her eyes then, remembering when So walked into her room covered in blood after massacring a temple full of monks. The words he’d said to her then come back to haunt her now: “You may have cast me aside, but I will not leave. From now on, I will make sure I am all you see.”

So smiles in the present to see this realization dawn on her face. He promises to build her a grand temple and spread tales of how wonderful a mother she was. A tear rolls down his cheek as he adds that everyone will know of their relationship, and their relationship only.

“I will become your one and only precious son. This… is my revenge for you abandoning me as your child.” The queen gasps for air, struggling to say “You… you!” as she reaches up a hand to his face, though it’s almost as if she wants to claw at him rather than caress him.

She has the strength to do neither though, and dies. So breaks down into pitiful tears as he holds her hand to his face, relishing a mother’s touch he could never receive in life.

Su is the one to venture out of the palace gates to deliver the news to Jung, and presumably is the one to allow him into his mother’s quarters to see her body. So allows for this small visit, but says that after he’s done saying his goodbyes, Jung’s punishment will be reinstated.

Later, So tears into Su for taking Jung’s side, and takes special offense to her pitying Jung when she, of all people, should be on his side. “He is not the pitiful one. I was always the one who was cast aside!” So bellows.

Pointing to the scarred side of his face, he tells her that his mother touched him right before she died. “In all my twenty-five years of life, I have never had her to myself. Is it so wrong for me to send her off on my own?” he cries.

Su reaches up to touch his face, but he catches her wrist before she can. “You should have said you understood me,” So grits out with tears in his eyes. He leaves, and all Su can do is sigh.

So finally confronts ninth prince Won over how involved Wook was with the mercury in the bathwater (he knows that Chae-ryung was a servant in Won’s household before she came to Damiwon), and Wang Gyu’s supposed revolt, which ended with the deaths of Eun and his wife.

Though initially reticent, the idea of being plunged into boiling water as punishment gives Won the courage to blame everything on Wook, who he claims colluded with the late king Jeongjong. So has just one more question for him, but we don’t hear what it is.

Su goes looking for Chae-ryung in Damiwon, but notices that there’s a pallor over the other court ladies. Woo-hee would rather show her than tell her what’s going on, since outside, Chae-ryung has been rolled up in a torture taco to be beaten. The king has ordered all the court ladies to watch as a warning.

Su can’t understand why the king would do such a thing, until Astronomer Choi explains that a court lady from Damiwon committed a very serious crime. It’s only then that she’s told who’s in the taco, causing her to stumble toward the bloody mess that was once her friend.

Woo-hee’s there to catch her when she faints, at least. We get a flashback montage of Su and Chae-ryung’s memories before finding Su lying in bed, with the king on a rampage over the royal doctor not telling him of Su’s illness.

Su wakes whispering Chae-ryung’s name, and pushes So off when he reaches out to her. “How could you? How could you do that to someone?” she screams. That’s when So opts to tell her that Chae-ryung had been spying on her the whole time, and that she was the one to deliver the book of Su’s Hangul to Queen Sinjeong.

He adds that not only was Chae-ryung partially responsible for them not getting married, but that it was she who put the mercury in the king’s bathwater. It was Chae-ryung who betrayed Eun and prevented his escape by telling Won and Wook about the secret cave beneath the baths.

That’s when Su remembers that Wook had told her he heard about the cave from Chae-ryung, so she knows what So says is true. Therefore, he stands by his decision, though Su tearfully claims that Chae-ryung’s only crime was being born a slave.

She doesn’t brush off the comforting hand So puts on her shoulder at least, but she gives him no other reaction as he gets up to leave. Seeing a letter that wasn’t there before, Su reaches for it…

But we cut to So throwing a fit in the throne room, as he realizes how much he’s been played by Wook. He knows he only has Baek-ah and Su left on his side, which he blames on Wook: “Now I’ve become a monster to Su. I will never let him get away with this.”

Su opens the letter and recognizes Chae-ryung’s hand instantly, which is yet another reminder that Chae-ryung lied to her (she’d claimed she never learned how to read). In the letter, Chae-ryung claimed that she’d wanted to confess everything to Su, but knew her time was running short.

We see Chae-ryung Lite in flashback as a beggar on the streets. Ninth prince Won had shown her mercy by giving the little girl silver, and when she became a servant in his house, he taught her how to read and write. In the letter, she tells Su that she loved him, and has no regrets, nor does she resent anyone. Is that letter supposed to be written in blood? When did she have time to write that thing?

So stumbles into his room (I’m guessing he’s drunk?), and thinks that Su is the one waiting on his bed wearing a mask. But as he pulls her close and lifts the mask just enough for him to be able to kiss her lips, he pulls back suddenly before he does, unmasking Yeonhwa instead.

He pushes her away, roughly reminding her that he warned her against getting greedy. She reminds him that he told her to fulfill her duties as a queen, and part of her duty is to bear him a son.

She more or less embraces him, causing So to smile ruthlessly. “What if I tell you to turn your back on Wook and your family? Can you do it?” If she were to do so and become his only queen, he adds, then he’d make their son the crown prince. She’d be both the queen, as well as the queen mother.

Su stares listlessly at the baths in Damiwon while clutching the hairpin So gave her. When Baek-ah approaches, she whispers flatly that the person she loved killed her little sister, and doesn’t seem to listen when Baek-ah says that the king already knew that Chae-ryung was up to no good. That was why he tried to send her away from the palace in the first place.

“No matter what she did wrong, how could he punish her so cruelly?” Su replies. “I don’t know how to escape this misery. Chae-ryung was just a girl in love.” She grips her chest as she becomes asthmatic again, causing Baek-ah to worry for her.

She turns to him then, and offers him her hairpin. She wants him to give it to Jung, and to send him a message: “I want it.” Of course, Baek-ah doesn’t know the meaning behind the message, but promises to deliver it just as she said it.

COMMENTS

I’m having a tough time understanding Su on this one, despite the understandable pain of losing someone she thought well of. It’d be a completely different situation if Chae-ryung had been killed and no one thought to explain her crimes to Su, but Su got a pretty good breakdown of Chae-ryung’s deceit from So and Baek-ah. Plus, she had proof that Chae-ryung was lying in the letter. So why can she not understand that Chae-ryung’s actions had consequences?

It’s not even as though Chae-ryung was only caught spying—So went into detail about her poisoning King Hyejong’s bathwater (and Chae-ryung had no qualms whatsoever about leaving the blame for that on Su’s shoulders), how she deliberately betrayed Su’s trust in stealing her writing and reporting on her, not to mention how she was directly involved in the deaths of Eun and Soon-deok. Doesn’t Su feel even remotely wronged? Can she really blame all of Chae-ryung’s actions on the fact that she was only taking orders? Enough to not trust the man she loves when he justified his actions?

Trust has always been a prevailing problem between Su and So, though it’s been a one-way street for a long while now. So never fails to give Su the benefit of the doubt, but she spares none for him—and it’s really beginning to feel like whenever she does have an opportunity to take his side, she opts not to. I get that he was being unreasonable when it came to his mother, but he had character-driven reasons for wanting her all to himself. All he wanted from Su was for her to understand him, but she couldn’t. Though that I can understand from her end just a little, since she likes Jung, and thought it would only be fair for him to see his mother. She got her wish in the end, and So didn’t fight her on it, which says a lot.

That being said, So’s scenes with his mother were the highlight of the episode, and they felt like the only anchor in the sea of fly-by-night scene cuts we’ve been getting. Finally, the camera saw fit to linger on something for more than a few seconds, and what a face to linger on. So’s been all over the map now that he’s become king, and it’s been hard to follow his lines of thinking when, for instance, he acted very bizarrely in court. All that smiling and agreeableness might’ve hinted at some ulterior plan, but the directing did nothing else to help lead us to that conclusion. Barring any hints, his behavior just left me scratching my head. I honestly don’t know what to make of it.

But his behavior with his mother felt grounded in something real, something we could actually understand, as we saw in So the lost boy who only ever wanted his mother’s love. He did get his revenge after all, but his revenge was just another way for him to try and reach out to her—if he couldn’t have her love by choice, he’d at least have the illusion of it. In the end, he only wanted her to acknowledge him as her son, and even at the bitter end, I’m inclined to think she didn’t. And that seems fitting for her character, who’s been thoroughly and unexplainably awful her entire life. It’d feel like cheating if she were redeemed in the final hour.

However, I have no qualms about So believing whatever he wants to believe about the intention behind his mother’s touch, because he’s just so pitiful. It’s heartbreaking that he’d take that ambiguous, clawing hand as affection, only because it was the first time his mother ever even touched him. But the facade melted away when she actually passed, and he looked more lost and devastated than ever as he held her hand to his face just to feel that touch she’d never willingly give. It was very well played, and I was with him every step. With Su, I just feel resigned. But who knows—maybe the time spent apart will help give everyone some perspective. Or it’ll just make everything worse.

1,026

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101 Jennie

October 26, 2016 at 3:29 AM

I cannot bring myself to watch Ep 19 but want to fast forward the whole drama to Ep 20 with the hope that So and Su reunite in the future when she "reemerges' from the past.

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Hanajj

October 27, 2016 at 3:29 AM

Me too... I might just watch that 5 minutes of happiness before the show ends...~sigh

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Yoyo

October 27, 2016 at 5:05 AM

@jennie

I can't speak for the majority, but I will give you my perspective why Moon Lovers Scarlet Heart Ryeo can dig a crater in one's heart. To be completely honest, I've never watched BBJX nor did I read the novel, I took on this show with limited knowledge of the plot, it's relevance to Korean history and the characters that will be responsible for the many emotional gut punches I would later receive. With that, it's evident that I was one of the very few who had limited expectations on the show.

Little did I know as each episode passed, I saw myself learning more about history, understanding the difference between the Chinese version and the novel, reading Chinese poems beautifully interpreted and translated, noticing the production flaws and coping with them, reading comments from fellow viewers and even gaining newfound friendships in between comment exchanges. A novice on Sageuk dramas but a lover of dramas nonetheless, Moon Lovers Scarlet Heart Ryeo unleashed a spell that has drawn me to appreciate its imperfection; with gravitating performances from both Lee Jun Gi and IU and an impressive supporting cast, I was introduced to a time in Goryeo where life was tragically hard but still, colorfully alive.

As the story unravels, I had many notions as well as questions why certain characters did what they did. I was always placing myself in the situation wherein I should have just been simply embracing the moment. I often argued on the logic behind decisions made both by the characters and the writers/production team, an argument that was unnecessarily needed but still had to be voiced. Simply put, I got lost in this beautiful mess.

I personally had never had such a deep connection with a show, its characters and fellow viewers alike. We're part of a community that appreciates the art and revels in the magnificent storytelling that graces our TV screens. Getting lost in this show but finding a way back has been nothing but a wonderful journey I have taken, and have no regrets whatsoever. The show has managed to bind us with its story and characters but it did more than that; it bridged differences, it created a sisterhood, it got people together to share their thoughts, knowledge and experiences.

Maybe the emotional setbacks we're feeling right now as the show nears its end, is the anxiety of getting oneself out of a habit. I look forward to the shows finale but my heart is left with a crater knowing my Monday and Tuesday nights won't ever be the same. So thank you, show! You did more than entertain.

Yoyo

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Lemon Meringue

October 27, 2016 at 7:14 AM

Bravo! *claps*

Will be right there with you on Monday and Tuesday, for an emotional ride like no other. Buckle in.

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kumoiwa

October 27, 2016 at 10:00 AM

Yoyo, you da champ.

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Maui

October 27, 2016 at 10:33 AM

@YOYO...standing ovation....clap,clap,clap...Thank you for sharing this...I feel the same way, what a journey, my first time becoming a total drama junkie but words fail me when describing what moonlovers has done for me...it's been such a full immersion experience, so I am glad I took the dive into this pool...thank u beanies your comments all of them have made this a rich tapestry, heads couldn't have had this forum without your loyal recaps...you are the wings for this flight to happen... Mondays and Tuesdays will not be the same after next week....

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Lin_K

October 27, 2016 at 12:46 PM

I also haven't watched BBJX but I had expectations for this show though. When I saw the EXO song and the six-minute highlight, my expectations were sky high. Because they portrayed this drama as epic, the romantic story of a couple who starts off on the wrong side, then start to care for each other, and eventually fall in love amidst tragic circumstances. And yes, my primary focus for this drama was the OTP. I could care less about palace politics.

After watching the first episode, I didn't feel anything spectacular EXCEPT for when LJK was on the screen and that screen time was very little. However, after I watched the ending of the second episode, my opinion began to change. LJK's "No, I don't want to" was so appealing at the end of episode 2. Haha. After that, the OTP had scenes together and their story began. The editing and OST bothered me only at the beginning; then I kinda stopped paying attention to that. It could have been much better but no big complaints there.

What irritated me was that they dragged the Wook-Su story line and didn't develop the OTP romance until way later in the story. Also, Su could have been written better. The conflicts of the OTP and their relationship development got lost in the time jumps. Such loss there. They could have just killed off Mu and Yo during time skips and I wouldn't have given two cents about it. Sometimes, the conflicts in this drama reminded me of The Heirs (though MLSHR is much better than that drauma). The OTP were kept apart to build up angst but that angst was resolved too quickly.

Overall, I love this drama mainly coz of LJK's acting/character and the main cast. I enjoyed the ride of watching and then commenting here. The story is mostly good. If one doesn't think too much about character development and just stay superficial, it's good. Only if the editing was better, much of the plot problems would have been less noticeable by many viewers. *Sigh*

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Lin_K

October 27, 2016 at 12:51 PM

I am glad I watched this. Otherwise, I would have missed one of Oppa's best performance and character! Love LJK forever <3 <3 It's gonna be tough when ML ends next week!!

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pogo

October 28, 2016 at 6:32 PM

@Yoyo - *applause*

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102 Lemon Meringue

October 26, 2016 at 3:36 AM

This episode is heart-breaking, but unlike ep 17 when it was of the bad-editing induced kind of teeth-gnashing heartbreak, this was the good kind of heartbreak, borne of more logical character motivations and plot developments.

Like many others, I had a gut reaction when I first watched the episode; how can you (HS) just up and leave the love of your life? And over the actions of a traitor at that?

But that was the So-Soo shipper in me speaking. The romantic who believes in OTP. The kdrama watcher who revels in watching the strong, sassy, smart, selfless-in-love heroine, which is in many ways as unrealistic an archetype as the cold, smart, emotionally unattainable hero who melts at the touch of an ordinary woman.

Put aside our own projections and expectations, and I can see why HS feels she can no longer live in the palace. HS is flawed - passive, loyal, pure and loving of heart, and not very smart. Ji Mong's words that she is no match for a king, made me wince, but is realistic for how she has been portrayed. She might have been a suitable companion for WS the outcast prince, but she is nowhere near qualified to be his Queen.

CR's death scarred her, and I don't believe it's as simple as taking CR's side over WS. On one level, she understands the reasons why CR was killed and it's clear HS felt betrayed too.

But she could empathise with CR's reasons for doing so. As Barbrey eloquently pointed out, just like CR, HS is also deeply in love with a man above her station, and CR's fate is a sign of the things HS might have to endure or even do as the lover of the king. Already, she's had to give up marriage to WS (and it's clearly for his sake, not hers) and suffered the loneliness, pain and not to mention indignity of seeing her man married to another woman.

Highlighting that CR was a slave in love with her master was a clever touch on the part of the show, as it was something only a 21st century woman, trapped and powerless in 10th century Goryeo, could empathise with.

I also like how WS is changing. He's NOT only a romantic lead; he's Gwangjong, and I appreciate that while he's swoony as HS's lover, he's also ruthless, feral and cruel. LJK is fantastic, as always, but really, it's WS the character that continues to fascinate me and compels me to watch.

So props to the show for showing how impossible it is for both of them to have a HEA in Goryeo. It's not that HS doesn't love WS, or vice-versa. Given how their characters have been set up, it makes sense that their growth arcs have taken them to diametrically opposite positions at this point in the show, where WS might have to make unpopular decisions in order to remake Goryeo, while HS just wants everyone to be safe and happy. And both positions are increasingly irreconcilable.

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pineapplegongzhu

October 26, 2016 at 7:14 AM

+10000 I love, love, love your analysis, Lemon Meringue!

When you wrote this, I nearly cried:

It’s not that HS doesn’t love WS, or vice-versa. Given how their characters have been set up, it makes sense that their growth arcs have taken them to diametrically opposite positions at this point in the show, where WS might have to make unpopular decisions in order to remake Goryeo, while HS just wants everyone to be safe and happy. And both positions are increasingly irreconcilable.

It is so true. It's not that their love isn't deep enough or true enough, but that their ultimate responsibilities and inner-logic are irreconcilable.

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loveblossom

October 26, 2016 at 9:42 AM

+1! @Lemon Meringue Love and agree with your analysis. You explained things better than I could. ^^

This really is a tragic love story. :(

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Barbrey

October 26, 2016 at 2:05 PM

+10000. LOVED this.

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pogo

October 26, 2016 at 2:19 PM

@Lemon Meringue - you're right that it isn't a lack of love that's splitting them apart, it's the respective ways in which they're growing/not growing.

I will admit, Su's readiness to leave So over Chae-ryung even AFTER the 'sorry not sorry, I was in love!" letter and her realising the full magnitude of Chae-ryung's betrayal left a really sour taste in my mouth, until other Beanies said that what Su feared was becoming a second Chae-ryung. Not only in terms of being in love with a man above her station, but in the things she'd be willing to do or turn a blind eye to if she stayed with So as he was becoming.

That explanation makes a lot of sense to me, but at the same time I'm not happy with how supremely easy it seems to be to shake Su's trust in So, while his trust in her remains absolute no matter what gets thrown at him.

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 4:50 PM

I think in the next episode preview, we see exactly this: So's trust in Hae Su being shaken.

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Jamie Opso

October 26, 2016 at 8:38 PM

@Lemon Meringue: *cries bitter tears at the truth of your words*

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Lin_K

October 31, 2016 at 9:52 AM

I loved your analysis. Thank you for sharing!

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Lin_K

October 31, 2016 at 9:54 AM

When I really want the OTP to happen, it's hard to see things from another perspective. But your post is a good reminder to see the reasons behind characters' actions.

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103 tesshan

October 26, 2016 at 3:52 AM

Can someone please call the time lord and get Hae So back to the 21st century? Like ASAP?!
How can this girl not understand that she is living in a time where a king needs to protect his throne in any way possible? I am sorry for her little sister but that girl poisoned a king and cannot get away with it and unfortunately the only way to prevent any other palace worker to do the same is by making an example out of her. I know she was just a tool and maybe the method of execution was harsh but it is a time where these kind of things happened. Hae So cannot expect that So just starts to behave like a 21st century gentleman.
Her friend was responsible for a lot of killings but it does not look like Hae So remembers it. Just because she was in love it is ok to be a puppet and do such horrible things? So explained it to her in detail...why can she not understand his point of view since she does it for anyone else there? So lost a mother that hated him until her last breath but he was still looking for some motherly love but Hae So did not even understand that.
At this point I really hope that she ends her arc as Hae So in the next episode and redeems herself in our eyes in episode 20 maybe in the present time where she finally offers the trust and support present day So deserves.

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transient

October 26, 2016 at 9:03 AM

The time lord is rather busy breaking the diamond wall and frying himself. He is still fulfilling his 5 billion years quota in the prison.

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Metebelis3

October 30, 2016 at 10:43 PM

All these Doctor Who references are putting a smile on my face!

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104 Misha

October 26, 2016 at 3:52 AM

At this point I find I'm not invested in the So/Su couple at all. Firstly it took way too long for anything to develop properly and a lot of it happened off screen.
Time and time again the writers of the show and not really shown any real character developments. I agree with Heads that Su constantly chooses not to side with So or show any real faith in him. Su shows she has the capacity to feel for others but that courtsey doesn't extend to So unless there is something in it for her.
I'm glad Chae Ryung is dead and I feel no sympathy for her. She knew what she was doing and again played on Su's weak side.
I think if anything Su needs to stop interferring and trying to change history when she geels like it. All she endz up doing is causing more trouble.

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Evelyn

October 26, 2016 at 5:44 AM

@Misha: I share the same sentiments. Honestly, I've never trully been invested in the couple. I felt like I spent most of the drama waiting for her to stop rendezvousing with Wook and to properly fall in love with So, yet that didn't really happen. And I'm kinda still waiting...

Su's lack of trust in him also makes me feel like she has never been completely invested in their relationship herself. Like you accurately said, she tends to give a wide berth to others when it comes to closing an eye to their faults, but she never really extends that courtesy to So.

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Misha

October 26, 2016 at 3:27 PM

I agree with you, so much time was spent on Wook/Su. I've never seen a drama that pushed the main couple on the back burner as much as this. Even when there are love triangles they tend to show both parties spending time with the one they love.

I hope her lack of trust and investment in the relationship isn't going to affect Baek Ah. Of all the people to drag into her mess she chooses his brother. Like he hasn't lost enough.

It's extremely poor writing and poor editing. I've seen BBJX and I know you can't but help to compare things but they've done an abysmal job. AT least with the Hana Yori Dango/ Boys over flowers, did a somewhat better job of trying to live up to the previous version.

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pogo

October 26, 2016 at 2:05 PM

@Misha - that is what I'm really annoyed about when it comes to So/Su. This is a love story and they're the couple at the centre of it, but all these major events for them end up spent offscreen? It's terrible writing, and terrible time management (seriously, they gave Eun's bloody puppets a proper scene but couldn't manage to fit in one with Su finally realising her feelings for So during that two-year time jump?)

I'm still invested, mainly because they built it up too well pre-vision, and LJK and IU sell it despite the drama's constant attempts to force them to look chaste and sweet, mainly on her end. They sell the emotional connection well enough, but I wish the physical dimension got a touch more acknowledgement.

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Misha

October 26, 2016 at 3:36 PM

I honestly have no idea what was going through their heads when they edited this. Perhaps they never really filmed the important scenes for the So/Su couple and just wanted to allude to it. They tried to hard to get the vital points of BBJX without having as many episodes and in my eyes they have failed.

I see what you mean, and I agree there is a connection. I'd even give them a pass on not showing the physical connection as much. The one thing that ruins it is there is no real character development in Su and her feelings. She said she'd trust So, but didn't tell about Eun and Sun Deok. Chae Ryung may have been LIKE a sister but So actually lost his brother because of her. Not to mention the fact Lady Oh ended up dying over what happened. Again in my eyes it links back to how Su hasn't developed a real emotional connection and trust of So.

Plus for her knowing so much of the future she sure is going out of her way to disrupt it. When she runs away with Jung of all people does she think So is going to go out skipping in the streets or want revenge for being abandoned by a person he loved.

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105 voice

October 26, 2016 at 5:07 AM

the wonderful instrumentals for this drama has been released!

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pogo

October 26, 2016 at 2:22 PM

oh THANK GOODNESS.

but hearing the instrumentals just makes me want to cry at how much better the experience of watching the show could have been if they had actually used more of that lovely music and hadn't had the weird over-reliance on those godawful pop/rap OSTs. (what was with the one playing over So spotting Su with Chae-ryung, anyway? like wtf)

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106 jinsel

October 26, 2016 at 5:13 AM

Till now i can't feel any connection for the characters. i'm still having trouble identifying which prince is which except for the main ones of course. And what's the whole point on the time travel thing really? they could have just dropped it off and do this as a normal sageuk drama. i've been fast forwarding alot cos it's just so boring. guess i'll be dropping this. boring as hell.

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107 Kendi

October 26, 2016 at 6:05 AM

"Her visions are the worst sort of plot device the writers could have thought of introducing as a barrier between the both of them. I don’t like that she trusts them mostly instead of trusting what she actually witnesses before her. I also really didn’t like that others (ie: Seon-deok) had to tell her to trust So, cause she loves him. And she’s like oh yeah maybe I should! Girl, do you really need an outsider to tell u that o.O"

I feel like that plot could only work once/first time. I could even invested in her character if she took a giant leap of faith to just love him unconditionally but instead she keep on making the same problems over and over again.

And it's not helping that her so called idealism isn't consistent by her reasoning CR crimes but not So.

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Baek

October 27, 2016 at 12:39 AM

Its probably also due to the history she knows that the 4th king would be a brutal one that kills his brothers and etc.. Then she had the vision of So being the 4th King in the rain praying ep which freaks her out.. And then the vision of him killing Eun did sort of ties in with the "history" she knows.. and thats probably why she cant give her 100% trust..

Actually im glad she at least trust So though at the very end under the reminder of Seon-deok and the king voiceover that tells her to cherish the present and tell them (Astronomer, So and general park) that Eun and wife are hiding at damiwon..

I mean i dont blame her, sometimes knowing too much is not a good thing.. its like getting plagued with nightmares... And of course, the vision she sees isnt the full picture (which is the twist and the point..)

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108 Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 6:13 AM

THE THREE BROTHERS: HOW TWO HAVE FAILED AND ONE WILL SUCCEED IN FREEING HAE SU

sigh, this drama has made me get insomnia! I just realized that Wang So has just become Wook 2.0 to Hae Su. I believe that she loves him deeply and he loves her more than Wook loved her, but the results are just the same. The writer really put forth this idea that love can change a person for the first half of the show, showing us exactly how WS was warped by the lack of love from his mother and how HS managed to reset him and help him become the man he is. That being said, the second half of the show seems to be a slow descent back to who WS was, a ruthless person who will do anything to protect what is his (actually, quite similar to his mother, Queen Yoo). I know we all hate the Queen, but WS is actually more similar to his mother than we admit. He's an extremist, just as his mother was ruthless in protecting Jung and Yo, WS is the same way for protecting his power and his people. The apple did not fall far from the crazy tree.

Both Wang So and Wook promised to take HS out of the palace and now both have failed. Wook said he would give up his power to move away with HS, but then realized he couldn't turn his back on his family. Wang So wanted to run away with HS before he became King, but when he realized that power could protect the people he loved, he ascended to the throne, but this further ensconced Hae Su in the palace because she was deeply in love with him by this point and could not imagine leaving him. So both men, in their attempts to free Hae Su, have only buried her deeper in the palace (WS because HS was deeply in love with him, and Wook by turning his back on her and her becoming a slave). I applaud HS for having had enough. As sad as it is Jung is the person who will finally set her free, making good on the promise that was broken by his two brothers.

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pineapplegongzhu

October 26, 2016 at 7:17 AM

True, but I think Jung's success is partially because he was never, and will never be a contender for the throne.

The throne is where innocence and love are sacrificed for the greater good of the country.

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straws

October 26, 2016 at 7:47 AM

+10000000000

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 9:08 AM

exactly, both Wook and So loses Hae Su for the same reason. Both think that taking the throne allows them power and the freedom of choice to love who they want. Instead, the throne restricts choice, limiting moves to political maneuvering and has absolutely no room for love. Look at Taejo, even he couldn't keep his beloved from death. WS and Wook are both mistaken.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 10:22 AM

@Seltzerwater, love your analysis..."Given how their characters have been set up, it makes sense that their growth arcs have taken them to diametrically opposite positions at this point in the show, where WS might have to make unpopular decisions in order to remake Goryeo, while HS just wants everyone to be safe and happy. And both positions are increasingly irreconcilable."...agree one thing about both So and Soo is that both are people with strong convictions...and about Jung I loved this "So both men, in their attempts to free Hae Su, have only buried her deeper in the palace (WS because HS was deeply in love with him, and Wook by turning his back on her and her becoming a slave). I applaud HS for having had enough. As sad as it is Jung is the person who will finally set her free, making good on the promise that was broken by his two brothers."....it's really about Jung understands that Soo has entered a viper's nest because she is loyal....I always appreciated the fact that only Jung seemed to understand what Soo's vision of freedom looked like...the camels and oceans....and that he was the only one who figured out her ultimate goal was to protect all the Prince's. As much as both Wook and So profess their love for her time and time again....it is surprising that they haven't really spend that much time talking to Hae Soo and getting to know her alot better than they do, to learn who she really is and what she wants. A good example is that book that So is given by the Queen that contains her modern day writing.....isn't he curious about how she learned to write this or why? ... When Hae Soo appears in the pool with the Prince's , and the time she appears in front of him at the Pool....again I would wonder Is she trying to drown herself? Why?....or the time she ends up serving tea to Taejo right before he dies....Why was she there? Why would Taejo give her advice?...It's like So hasn't really tried to delve that deeply into Soo and maybe that is where I think the next episode will take us....now that he lives with her and sees her everyday, Soo's past is beginning to emerge....By the way can anyone read what HaeSoo's book was? Is it a diary? It's pretty incriminating evidence.....what would an archeologist in modern times say to finding that book?....

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 11:13 AM

@maui OOO good points. I think Wang So's love of her is almost selfish in a way too, because he wants her to be everything to him: both Mother and Lover. And I feel like she can really only give so much.

HS's love of freedom and individual choices is something that WS is well aware of, but in his rise to the throne, this has been backburned.

But Jung notices, and Jung listens, and Jung knows. I don't ship them at all and I don't believe HS will ever love Jung the way she loves WS, but at the same time, he's the only man who's actively trying to give her what she wants right now where as her past two loves are trying to fit her into THEIR LIVES.

We already know HS is from the future, she will NEVER fit into their lives. I'd LOVE for WS to really think about HS's past and how she arrived and why she's writing in a different language than he know instead of dismissing the information because it doesn't fit "his picture" of her.

pogo

October 26, 2016 at 1:59 PM

it is surprising that they haven’t really spend that much time talking to Hae Soo and getting to know her alot better than they do

I don't think Wook and So are anywhere near the same level of cluelessness about Su, probably because So was the first - and initially the only - person to whom Su actually talked, about what it was like to live in Goryeo. So knows, over years spent interacting with Su, that there are things she knows that he doesn't (the constellation names, for one), so it's not too surprising that he isn't bothered by the idea of her writing in a new lettering system/code, especially in the palace.

Jung's knowledge of the fact that Su dreams of travelling is basically the sum of his knowledge about her inner life and thoughts. And So offered Su the same thing Jung did, years ago - a platonic marriage as a way out of the palace.

tesshan

October 26, 2016 at 8:45 AM

I agree in parts. Jung never wanted to be king and that makes his life easier. But he also never wanted to save his brothers like So was trying to do from the start. He was the only son that was sent away but he still cares for all of them, even eyeliner prince yo who treated him in the worst way from the start.
I do not think he is an extremist...he just acts the only way he knows how to. I also think that he underestimated the whole ascending the throne/saving the brothers/fixing all issues situation. He never realised that he needed allies to stay on that throne. He miscalculated because he is a warrior and not a politician like Wook. He thaught getting there would be the difficult part instead of realising that being king long term is the tricky part of this business.
To become king you need to throw away something...that rule can unfortunately not be broken and all people that decide to follow that path have to pay the price for it. So thought he could be different but that is not possible. Jung can get her out of the palace but he will never have her heart and as we can see now not even a long life with her. They all loose here. No one wins. Hae So will be physically free but her heart will stay in the palace with So so she as well is giving up something important to achieve freedom.

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Jamie Opso

October 26, 2016 at 8:48 PM

@Tesshan: "Hae So will be physically free but her heart will stay in the palace with So so she as well is giving up something important to achieve freedom."

Yes, so true, but true for everyone, really: for every choice we make, we leave something else behind.

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gavotte

October 27, 2016 at 5:27 AM

"Hae So will be physically free but her heart will stay in the palace with So so she as well is giving up something important to achieve freedom."

Ack, how can you put it so beautifully? ToT

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Jamie Opso

October 26, 2016 at 8:46 PM

@Seltzerwater: "...the second half of the show seems to be a slow descent back to who WS was, a ruthless person who will do anything to protect what is his (actually, quite similar to his mother, Queen Yoo). I know we all hate the Queen, but WS is actually more similar to his mother than we admit. He’s an extremist, just as his mother was ruthless in protecting Jung and Yo, WS is the same way for protecting his power and his people. The apple did not fall far from the crazy tree."

Yes, they are definitely similar: verging on crazy because of extremity in ruthlessness, love, and possessiveness. Do you remember them both saying "my person"? So is probably the son most like her of the three.

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straws

October 26, 2016 at 10:41 PM

Jung only succeeds because this time Hae Soo "say yes". So offer the same thing years ago, but she rejected it. Wook decided to forget his offer of marriage just because King had chosen to marry Eun to celebrate rain instead of freeing court lady.

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StarryNight

October 27, 2016 at 3:57 PM

@ seltzerwater: You bring up some very good points /parallels about WS and his mother. Love and duty-- not a good combo, especially when one is forced to choose. It bears the question: what will people do for love? And better yet: what will people do for power?

While I kinda get why people don't care for Jung, I do like him. Considering everything that's happened he's better for HS than WS or WW. Yeah, he can give her that life outside the palace walls and I think he *does* care for her, though it's not the same. I was all for Team Wook in the beginning but after his reluctance to help HS when she needed it, and his broken promises (yes, I understand why he did what he did), he lost all credibility. WS was the dangerous loner bad-boy with the tortured soul--that combo appeals to many people. I can't blame HS for falling for him. And while their relationship was enjoyable to see unfold, we all knew what the inevitable end was going to be.

All I can say is that LJK has got some serious acting chops! (I'm more of a J-Drama fan, so I haven't seen his work before).

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109 alasecond

October 26, 2016 at 6:17 AM

Come to think of it..

She (HS) did hit her head when she fell down..

Maybe we are wrong since the very beginning..
It was always meant to maintain that consistency..

She hit her head...she is addled..and its a long term effect so she is always addled

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Jamie Prado

October 26, 2016 at 6:29 PM

For Real - perfect explanation. She had a brain injury.

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110 Panache

October 26, 2016 at 8:02 AM

Okay, I am done defending this show and it's getting so stupid because of the lazy writing. WTH happened with the pre-production method? It was supposed to help the show in a GOOD way.

I am so annoyed with Su right now too. I agree with Heads, her logic doesn't make sense. I would be more hurt about So getting married to evil queen #2 than than about CR getting beaten to death. CR had a choice too, to stop being a spy but she didn't and she killed the King. Su's modern girl sensibility or logic is non-existent!

I have a love/hate kind of relationship with the show right now. My only hope, LJK, isn't even keeping me interested anymore.

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tesshan

October 26, 2016 at 8:37 AM

In the Chinese version (if I remember correctly from reading it online) Hae So's character never wanted to get married in the first place so she was happy enough to be with the King but not being his wife. Looks like they kept that bit but it was poorly depicted on screen in my opinion.

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faith

October 26, 2016 at 8:50 AM

if i can add more...ruoxi understand if she become the wife, she basically changing the history too...

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sancheezy

October 26, 2016 at 1:44 PM

in the c-version,aside from history,
if she becomes official wife then the emperor can't visit her every time since he has to visit another wife as equal as ruoxi time and she'll live in another palace,
they both agree for "love" that she better just beside him and that can be reached by not become an official wife,

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111 Jaegerjaques

October 26, 2016 at 8:18 AM

The issue I have with Su leaving now is that her reasoning is anger towards So killing Chae Ryung despite all the evidence and explanations from his side. If it were disappointment and fatigue from experiencing all the cruelty and scheming in the palace and having to watch how it changes her friends and the man she loves I would understand. She feels helpless and tired so she wants out. But it's just stubborn anger about killing Chae Ryung. Like a kid throwing a tantrum refusing to see behind the scenes.

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 9:06 AM

I disagree, you can see my reasoning laid out below.

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112 Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 9:05 AM

HAE SU'S REASONS FOR LEAVING

Copied from Soompi:

"Why HS decides to leave the palace: I think it's not that she doesn't understand the reasons for CR's punishment or that she doesn't forgive WS. She had two reasons to stay in the palace: to guide WS to be a gentler king and because she hoped for her own happy ending with WS. During the events of episode 18 she realizes that both of these are hopeless causes. I think she sees a parallel between CR and herself and is afraid that instead of influencing WS to be gentler (she seems to have no influence in that regard) she would instead be forced to share in some of the bloodshed. So she doesn't have enough reasons to stay after episode 18. Moreover their relationship is not that of equals any longer, she calls him his majesty also in private. And I think another issue with their relationship is that WS hasn't had unconditional love from his parents (the mother's love is what he himself seems to most miss), and he wants that from HS, which is why he can't accept that HS will criticize his treatment of Jung. Because it's something that a parent will accept, but it's not something a lover should accept. I think him rejecting HS's touch on the cheek might be also because his mother's touch was there and he didn't want to write it over with HS's touch. He wants the love of a mother, the love of a woman is not enough."

Here's my comments:
She tells Jimong she has only endured because she thinks that there's a happy ending for her and WS. Jimong tells her that she's not a match for the King and tells her that WS' life is in danger if WS marries her. Our girl has seen 3 kings die. YH tells HS the exact same thing, about how WS has been shielding HS from the larger dangers in her life. With both those options off the table: a happy ending, WS' safety, Hae Su has no reason to stay. She can't marry Wang So, she can't protect Wang So, and WS wants that unconditional love from her that's far above what any reasonable person can give. She's already given him her heart, her body, and the chance to be king. I don't know what's left of Hae Su to give anymore. With Chae Ryung's death, revealing the deepest betrayal in her life, I absolutely get why Hae Su decides to leave the palace. There's nothing there for her anymore.

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esjpx

October 26, 2016 at 9:30 AM

"She’s already given him her heart, her body, and the chance to be king. I don’t know what’s left of Hae Su to give anymore."

I love this part of your comment. She's given her whole self to him, yet apparently that's not enough. Just how much more does she have to endure? I really like how someone on tumblr put this in their commentary: she's been setting herself on fire for years in order to keep Wang So warm.

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Jamie Prado

October 26, 2016 at 6:31 PM

Well that is a different way to think of it but I can see it now that you guys pointed it out.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 11:49 AM

Love it!!!!

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 11:50 AM

So true....well written...also loved your reply on Jung....

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pogo

October 26, 2016 at 1:51 PM

She’s already given him her heart

which is why I wish this blasted drama would SHOW US THAT because with the constant second-guessing based on visions, it doesn't feel like Su is in this with her whole heart. It's maddening.

I actually liked seeing So and Su fight this episode, if nothing else because she was sticking up for what she believed based on what So had actually done and not because a goddamned vision showed her So-as-monster.

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 2:32 PM

I think she has tho? I guess I saw her making him King the ultimate sacrifice for Wang So because she knows exactly what it means for him to be King (b/c of her previous experience with the 3 Kings), that she might be set aside, that her relationship with Wang So would change, but that because it was what he wanted, she set aside what she wanted for him. I feel like that's a more subtle of telling us that she loves him than a flat out declaration. Hae Su feelings have always been demonstrated through action rather than words. Even with Wook, she thinks about her feelings rather than stating to them to him. "If I could be with him, I can be Hae Su." or "I can be happy with him, he will not change." Actually this does bring a great contrast between her treatment of Wook to Wong So. With Wook, she did not make very many moves in declaration. I feel like Wang So, she did nothing but make moves. She seeks him out when they weren't lovers, she tries to console him, she waits for him, she find him after he dumps her, she makes him the King, she tells him that she's going to be his woman despite the polygamy. I mean. That's a lot.

She has also given up a huge part of herself to be with him. Wang So knows that she hates polygamy, yet she pledged that she would stay with him before shit hit the fan. And that was his SECOND marriage, so she's not even like in top 3.

But yes, I loved seeing them fight. Felt so real. But also felt like Wang So was fighting unfair - he refused to hear Hae Su out, even after she was reaching out to him as gesture of conciliation after his mother's death. He expects her to exactly understand how he feels at all moments, and that's simply not realistic.

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pogo

October 26, 2016 at 5:00 PM

Here's the thing - she makes him king by her recognition, thinks to herself that she'll help him not be the bloody king her history remembers him as, stays by his side despite his marriage..... but sometimes it really ends up feeling like she's doing it for reasons other than her wanting him as badly as he wants her. Like the thought she has when she sees So-as-Gwangjong in real life isn't 'I'm going to stick with him no matter what', it's 'I'll help him'.

As a declaration of love goes, it's rather weaksauce.

And when it comes to So and Su's fight, Su has fought unfair in the past too. I mean, she spent an entire episode pushing So away for the sake of her visions when he had absolutely no idea why she was acting the way she was, and couldn't possibly be expected to know.

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banini

October 26, 2016 at 6:49 PM

As a have mentioned in my comments down below, I'm beginning to think Su's confusing expression of love for So maybe deliberate. So is maybe as confused as we are to the point that he would doubt Su's love for him once he learns about Wook.

Remember, we were given a lot of Su-Wook moments that we do not doubt she loved him, but so little with So which included long separations. All the things Su did for So may then be interpreted as her doing it to protect Wook in So's eyes.

Yes So-Su have connection but doesn't feel complete. How those frustrated with Su feel is how So probably feels - he same as us waited for so long for Su to come around holding onto just crumbs then compare it with how she was with Wook.

Those who understands Su probably represent how So would be when he loses Su, when he learns thru her letter or the numerous copied poems that she really loved him though she didn't say or show much. He will only learn after the fact just like most of us probably.

banini

October 26, 2016 at 7:44 PM

...and can we blame So? We know So as emotionally insecure. We ourselves sometime in our lives had that "does he love me or not" moment when the other person is not as expressive as we have wanted. Most would want assurance specially if that love was something you waited for, not intially yours.

As much as it would be better if So looked into Su's feelings deeper, he is a busy and worried king, I don't thinks he has the luxery of time and focus to analyze her every word, emotion and motivation.

pogo

October 27, 2016 at 6:27 AM

Hae Su feelings have always been demonstrated through action rather than words.

Yes - and then promptly undermined by her actions again, every single time. Like clockwork.

It's a story/writing problem that Su's moments of doubt, distrust and tentativeness leave a larger impression than those when she's actually expressed that trust. If you look at their confession/proposal scenes, there's absolutely no doubt she loves him (the heartbreak in her eyes when she turned him down at the prayer stones...), but then the drama goes and has her do or say something that promptly makes the point that she doesn't actually trust him very much at all. Which is particularly unsatisfying given just how hard it's been to shake So's trust in Su.

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Seltzerwater

October 27, 2016 at 12:05 PM

Yeah I see your point. I don't think we're going to be able to get a declaration of her feelings for WS until the bitter end. And the things that she does say to other people are not exactly indicative of what she's thinking.

But to me, I think if we take the balance of her actions against the things that she does that seem like she's turning away from WS, I think we'll find it favoring her love for him. Even when she wasn't in love with him, she still protected him and tried to sustain a relationship with him through some very scary emo-So moments (including the Bday Wrist grab and forced kiss). With her, even when she takes a step back, she always comes back to him and tries to nurture that relationship, which I guess is part of her personality. But idk, I really feel like she gave up on Wook when he was on his King betrayer route and chose WS. I guess it's frustrating to watch as someone who wants a firmer ground for their relationship to stand on, but I can't help but wonder if that's not why I'm captivated by this relationship. I have no idea what Hae Su is going to do.

And I do think that proposal scene was one of the most heart breaking things I've ever seen. Because both of them, even as they're in denial, know that it's the end for them.

pogo

October 30, 2016 at 5:36 AM

@Seltzerwater - my problem with Su is precisely this - we shouldn't have to dig and dig so deep to parse whether she truly loves So or not. I'm not asking for a love declaration, but the relationship Su is trying to nurture is one in which she's constantly withholding her trust of So. Which would be fine with me if that distrust was mutual, but the balance of the trust given has been mostly on So's side, and in the absence of her own trust of him, Su comes off as really reluctant to commit to this relatiosnhip at all.

pogo

October 30, 2016 at 7:25 AM

I realise the phrasing of my earlier comment wasn't quite right - Su has committed to the relationship in major ways, but given that she keeps distrusting So, it ends up coming off like she's staying with him reluctantly, even if she's actually choosing to stay with him. Reluctance is not something you want in a romantic relationship.

Pip

October 26, 2016 at 3:41 PM

“She’s already given him her heart, her body, and the chance to be king. I don’t know what’s left of Hae Su to give anymore.”

I disagree with this. Like some of the comments above, she seems to have a double standard for what is and isn't acceptable from So. The others have many flaws that she overlooks but because she knows that So was a ruthless King she interferes way too much to change things. BBJX did a better job with the female lead. There weren't as many charater inconsistencies.

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ki

October 26, 2016 at 11:41 PM

thank you for this!

a lot of people are brushing over the magnitude of so's cruelty towards chae ryung.

at this point in the drama, mu has been dead for ages. everyone - with the exception of so, won and wook - blames his death on yo. this is important because it makes cr's situation much different from hae soo's when she was tortured.

at that time, it was public knowledge (in the palace at least) that someone had tried to poison the crown prince. someone had to die to set an example.

in cr's case, who are they setting an example for? her spying and plotting was only known to some of the princes.

despite knowing how close hae soo is to cr, so orders her to be killed in such a brutal way. he doesn't warn hae soo that her maid (and closest friend) is about to be executed, he doesn't respect her enough to think that she should have a say in the matter.

of course she would be upset enough to leave him. it's not merely hae soo throwing him away over cr, it's her realising that he is capable of much cruelty and that her position in the palace is to be a pretty doll for him to dress up and play with whenever he's not doing his kingly duties.

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Pip

October 27, 2016 at 1:42 PM

I don't think it matters how long Mu has been dead, what CR did is high treason and she's lucky that's all that happened. Some traitors would have their family lines wiped out for their actions. Don't forget CR has already helped kill one King, how can you trust she wouldn't be trusted to not do it again.

Su is very contradictory. She's hurt she lost someone like a sister but discounts the fact this sister of hers was the reason she was almost hung, caused Lady Oh's death and now killed Mu who is So's brother. The character hasn't developed at all considering how long she has been there. She doesn't get to manipulate So into doing what she wants because he loves her.

She could have left earlier, but instead she waited around and begged him not to kill his brothers, what does she think he's going to do if he thinks Baek Ah betrayed him by exchanging messages with Jung. Her character poses as though she is thinking of other but in reality it's about what will make her happy or sad. The writers have done a terrible job in my opinion.

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pogo

October 27, 2016 at 11:34 AM

I get why Su's leaving now that Chae-ryung's duplicity was exposed and she's died a horrible death on So's orders, but this part:

Moreover their relationship is not that of equals any longer, she calls him his majesty also in private.

She's always addressed him by his title, right from Day 1. It's just that the title is now 'emperor' instead of 'prince' - she's never used his given name.

Literally the only one of the princes she's addressed by name to their face, is Baek-ah. When she was drunk.

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113 YY

October 26, 2016 at 9:38 AM

The sad reality is love is considered a weakness in the cold cruel world of the palace; it is a weakness to be exploited by the enemies and the plotters. So is weakened and vulnerable because of his love for Hae Su. Love has no place in this bleak, barren and barbaric world, where no one is safe, where one is not allowed to speak one's thoughts freely, where the king decides who lives and who doesn't, who goes free and who doesn't.

Hae Su has been sustained all these years by So's love for her. She tells herself he is different from Wook, that he is honest and open about his desire to be king. That face-off with Wook in the previous episode was just so gripping to me - the look he gave her as she spoke of So's honesty, a mixture of contempt, cynicism and pity at her naivete...it was like he was thinking, wait and see, So and me, we are similar, you don't know it yet, but you will...

I actually shared Su's idealism then, that somehow So would be different, would prove Wook wrong, would still be able to retain his humanity. But, like Su, I am forced to see finally, that he is no glorified drama hero, but a flawed, violent, paranoid, possessive man, who lives in terror of the throne being taken from him, and of Hae Su forsaking him.

For a while, I was like Su, I allowed myself to be lulled into thinking that the sheer strength of his love for Su would somehow make it possible for them to overcome all odds. I was so wrong. Love has no place in this world, and without love to sustain her, she will no longer be able to live.

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Barbrey

October 26, 2016 at 2:11 PM

SO well put, YY! We were all lulled like Su. I loved everything you said here.

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Jamie Opso

October 26, 2016 at 8:55 PM

@YY: "I actually shared Su’s idealism then, that somehow So would be different, would prove Wook wrong, would still be able to retain his humanity. But, like Su, I am forced to see finally, that he is no glorified drama hero, but a flawed, violent, paranoid, possessive man, who lives in terror of the throne being taken from him, and of Hae Su forsaking him."

It's a cold, effing universe, isn't it? Why can't we live in a fluffy romance world, WHY?!?!

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Lin_K

October 27, 2016 at 12:55 PM

I don't want to acknowledge your post. Lol. I am gonna live in my fantasy world that So and Su's love is enough to sustain all odds; if they can't in Goryeo, they can in the 21st century.

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JoyBells

October 27, 2016 at 10:31 PM

You put it so well. My heart hurts now.I hate you. <3

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114 Illa

October 26, 2016 at 9:57 AM

Here's So, who has always been rejected by everyone and cast aside. He's built up this fantasy of what being king will be like in his head. Sort of like a fat girl who fantasies about how perfect her life will be once she's skinny at last. He's going to be great, everyone will finally love him. His mom will be proud and dote on him, his brothers will think he's awesome, no one will ever call him wolf dog again. He's going to solve all of the kingdom's problems easily and be the best king ever, and no one will remember he's a scarred, twisted reject. And he'll have Hae Soo. Who will love him perfectly and never leave him and be everything he ever needs and make up for his mom and crappy childhood.

...but now he's actually king and it's nothing like that. He's lost the weight and still hates himself. His mom hates him, the nobles won't even show up to court, his brothers are being snitty, and this whole king business is really hard and not what he thought. And he can't have Hae Soo, the one thing he's wanted all along. And Hae Soo is showing herself to be actually human all along, and incapable of being his perfect everything, because no one can be that for anyone else.

So, whenever anything at all threatens his mental image of what things should be, he freaks out, lashes out, and has that thing completely squashed. Someone make Hae Soo upset at him? Kill them all. Someone think he's not suitable? Kill them all. Brother not falling in line? Banish him. Pesky reality stepping in? Get rid of it amd insist things will bend to your will until you can't ignore it anymore. This is the reason behind his bizarre behavior and mental instability. He is trying to keep that fantasy in his head.

Then Hae Soo. The writers, time constraints, korean censorship guidelines, and the actress's inexperience are all building off of each other to damage the show. I am fairly certain that the poignant pause and wide shot frame after Soo finishes the letter were intended to show her realization that she has become just like her dead friend--she has fully compromised herself for love and gotten lost along the way. She is personally responsible for naming So king-which she was dead set against. She spends her days doing nothing and helping no one, when work was so important to her. She is siding with one brother over the others. She let So marry someone else, after hating the practice of plural wives and concubines. She is unhappy. She's letting So lie and mistreat her, after saying she wouldn't have a repeat of her ex. She's letting other people die to make her life happier, which she vowed to never do again after lady Oh. And, worst of all, she gave up. She has completely betrayed her core values for So, and this is a just and understandable reason to leave So.

But, all we see are Soo's asthmatic fish face and a suddenly behavior flip.

I am disappointed since there is an amazing amount of potential that is just not being used.

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 10:08 AM

"She has completely betrayed her core values for So, and this is a just and understandable reason to leave So."

THIS. She is not the same person she was at the beginning. Leaving Wang So is an attempt to save Ha Jin.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 10:27 AM

@Seltzerwater....."She is not the same person she was at the beginning. Leaving Wang So is an attempt to save Ha Jin."......BINGO! It isn't about betraying So or abandoning So.....or not loving So......or being upset about Chae Ryung....she is changing.....and we know how Soo feels about change.....

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Barbrey

October 26, 2016 at 2:16 PM

Love this line: "Leaving Wang So is an attempt to save Ha Jin." That's exactly how I read it too.

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Lin_K

October 27, 2016 at 1:06 PM

"Leaving Wang So is an attempt to save Ha Jin."

How so? I don't see how she changed her core values. She is still the nice, caring, dependable, and sweet Su. Are you referring to sharing him with another woman as she was opposed to polygamy before? She is constrained by the palace rules. She doesn't fit there. I understand that but at the same time, I really don't see how things would be different, as far as societal constrains go, if she goes outside the palace. It's still 10th century Goryeo where women and people of lower birth are mistreated. She can find happiness/peace being away from all the palace politics and So's power-hungry attitude but that's it. Right?

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maui

October 26, 2016 at 10:42 AM

@ Illa....I agree with this " I am fairly certain that the poignant pause and wide shot frame after Soo finishes the letter were intended to show her realization that she has become just like her dead friend–she has fully compromised herself for love and gotten lost along the way. She is personally responsible for naming So king-which she was dead set against. She spends her days doing nothing and helping no one, when work was so important to her. She is siding with one brother over the others. She let So marry someone else, after hating the practice of plural wives and concubines. She is unhappy. She’s letting So lie and mistreat her, after saying she wouldn’t have a repeat of her ex. She’s letting other people die to make her life happier, which she vowed to never do again after lady Oh. And, worst of all, she gave up. She has completely betrayed her core values for So, and this is a just and understandable reason to leave So."

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 11:25 AM

@Illa, I like your analysis, especially of So's ideas about the throne...can this not also be extended to the Royal family and their perception of the throne versus not just So?...starting with Yeonwha who also thinks the throne is the solution to all her problems and elevating a son there will be the crowning jewel (Another Yo in the making), Wook who thinks similar to So (he wants the girl, and the throne), Won he will guarantee a safe place behind the scenes to ensure he prospers and become the King's puppet master (The King pays the consequences and he garners all benefits), Yo (he will be a strong not a whimpy King and earn his mother's love in the process), Mu he will fulfill his father's wishes and keep the Kingdom at peace , Queen S she will rule as a Mother Queen, and earn the King's love, her son will inherit the throne and continue to prosper, the other Queen (Wooks Mom), will raise her daughter to be Queen and guarantee a safe place for her family and son (keeping him out of politics) and from getting killed....has anyone gotten there wish at this point?....what the throne gives it asks for sacrifice in return....the throne only destroys it does not provide happiness...

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sancheezy

October 26, 2016 at 1:49 PM

well she needs to say all of this because it seems like she never learns anything (after years in the palace) and keeps making a bad decision by her one-sided view,
she never listen.. and she is selfish,

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Barbrey

October 26, 2016 at 2:15 PM

Good post! I agree. We have to reach too hard to read her, piling up incident after incident to explain her motivations, and the incidents are there, but we're not getting something concrete to tie them together. I disagree in that I think IU is doing a stellar job, but if a more concrete POV for her is not in the script, or has been edited out, then there is just not much she can do.

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115 blu

October 26, 2016 at 10:28 AM

i'm genuinely confused as to Won(9th)'s game plan at this point. Did he convince Chaeryung to stay in Damiwon as a spy to help Wook?.. or just himself to be one step ahead with regards to So? If he were truly self-serving I feel like he would know at the point when So confronted him that it was time for him to switch sides to So and he wouldn't have hesitated..

sorry, I'm so confused and if anyone cares to answer I'd be so thankful. I actually find Won one of the most interesting characters in this show, he's like a dumber version of littlefinger lmao

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 10:57 AM

hi @blu, well not sure this will help but I will give it a try.....Won is basically a puppet master for Chaeryung....her family was starving and as a child she had no way to save them...she runs to the street in desperation and 9th Prince is passing by and gives her money , saying he admires her persistence....Chae Ryung falls in love with him and is bought by Won as a slave...from then he raises her and basically has her work as his spy.....both Wook and Won put her next to Soo at the Daminwon. It raises important questions about how long was Chae Ryung spying on Soo...we never know how the original Hae Soo ends up at the bathouse dieing or why she drowns.....was Chae Ryung working for him then already? Did the original Hae Soo kill herself? Maybe to hide something between her and 8th Prince? . Basically when Soo tells So "Her only crime is being a slave" she's telling So, find the puppet master. Soo already knew that Wook was the one poisoning the Mercury bath water. In other words Chae Ryung wasn't working alone.....this means Hae Soo is basically handing Wook to So, because she knows he will look into who the puppet masters is, and that's exactly what happens....Won's game plan was to use Chae Ryung to assure a safe position for him to manipulate the King. She was his scapegoat in case they found the truth. Chae Ryung is loyal to Won, so even when they where beating her , you didn't hear her screaming, pleading, or crying.........That's why Soo says she did it out of love....in one scene she refuses money for her help from Won.....

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Lily

October 26, 2016 at 11:41 AM

I hope Chae Ryung did not have anything to do with the original Hae Soo's death. I'm quite fond of her character in the first episodes, and at some points, she seems to have sincere emotions towards Soo. When Soo was sentenced to death, she was the one desperately begging Wook to save Soo, while he, of course, did not lift a finger. I'm not sure if she's willing to harm Soo's life it that is what Won wants, but because of the show's time limit, her character was not properly developed, there are still so many questions left unanswered.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 1:10 PM

@Lily...I agree...I'm fond of Chae Ryung's character too... it's not that what she did was not wrong...as Soo said "She has sinned..."....it's that she truly was a programmed slave by Wook...slaves truly had no rights back then....if they were ordered to kill, kill it was or die.....I think Chae Ryun tried to work within the confines of her situation and genuinely cared for Soo , that's why she begged Wook and Won for her life....she was actually risking their anger at that point, beatings etc...all the characters in this are so multilayered...we need more time for proper development...but 20 episodes is not enough for a story this big, and complex....also what happened here might be an eye opener for So....slaves can always be used against the King and all misdeeds just attributed to the slave while the master continues to play to their hearts content....if you remember So /Gwangjong becomes the King that liberates slaves, against the wishes of royal family members including Yeonwha...

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blu

October 26, 2016 at 7:20 PM

thanks so much @Maui yes it makes sense that Won would need help in order to manipulate the king and things! I like your explanation thankss

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Barbrey

October 26, 2016 at 2:25 PM

I'm genuinely confused too. Chae Ryung was a spy for Won in Wook's household, for one thing, it seems. She already knew how to read because Won went to the trouble to teach her. That implies a long-term plan. Why did Won plant her at Wook's? Instead of, say, with the Crown Prince?

And when did Wook figure this out or when did Won tell him, what did he say when he did, and when did he and Won decide to use her to poison the CP? One thing we know is that Yo didn't know about the poisoning until almost after the fact. So Won lied to So when he said "the past king" (by this time he meant Yo) was in on it. This was a Wook-Won plan.

I know we won't get any answers to any of this. Sloppy stuff.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 6:05 PM

Hi Barbrey, ok I'll try to answer your questions...from what I know, and incorporating c-version and what I understand of Won ....Yes...there was definitely a long term plan with Chae Ryung...Won is adept at making money, it's the skill he is best as a Prince....so I'm assuming he has all sorts of money laundering activities happening...people in those times involved in making money usually are....and a good trustworthy spy is essential in these kinds of activities...This is why I say Won programmed his own slave to become the perfect spy, since childhood and taught her to read/write..".Why did Won plant her at Wook’s? Instead of, say, with the Crown Prince?"...It would have been very hard to plant Chae Ryung with the Crown Prince, because I'm pretty sure the CP was pretty suspicious of everyone, and in what capacity could Chae Ryung get truly close to the CP?...we don't know what sort of activities Wook and Won were involved in together before Hae Jin arrived, was Won maybe involved with Won in some sort of trade deal....that would explain Chae Ryung being in Wooks house, maybe Won was actually using her to spy on Wook....we don't know why Chae Ryung was in 8th Prince's home, but when Hyun Jin arrives she already is her maid.....I think that Wook is the one who decides to send Chae Ryung to the Daminwon....Chae Ryung says in an earlier episode she gets emancipated by Wook and allowed to work at the Palace Daminwon....essentially Wook releases her from service to him to work at the palace.....this is a great position for Chae Ryung , close enough to the CP but not enough to arise suspicion...

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116 Moon Lover

October 26, 2016 at 10:53 AM

I've plan out perfectly, next week after the last episode of ML I'll watch Arang and rewarch 2 weeks. Then I'll listen to LJK's audio to learn Korean. After finished all that I'll track down and watch all the ML MV on Youtube. And come back here to read the latest discussions again. Hopefully it will last until Residents Evil release in my county.

Or so I plan before watching episode 18

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117 Lily

October 26, 2016 at 11:18 AM

I've decided to wait until ep 20 and just get it over with. I could not watch this episode properly and I don't think I can handle ep 19.
And I am so glad to see some of us speaking up for Hae Soo. As a girl from the future, she gave up her hope, even her dignity to be her lover's only woman so that he will not bear a burden as a king. After he has married some other women, she stays there merely as a "woman of the king," so that she can be close to him. People say So has done many things for Soo, but for a modern woman like Soo, isn't it sacrifice, isn't it love?
So says he has to become king because he feels so helpless, but now that he's sitting on that throne, he's even more helpless than ever. People on that seat always tend to turn to the selfish and cruel side, claiming that everything they do is for the greater good, but it always goes down to one thing: keeping the throne. That's why normally when a male lead in a period drama becomes king, he's dead to me. I understand So has so many obstacles to overcome and he did try not to give up on Soo. But from the moment he becomes king, he has slowly turned his back to her without noticing it. And now he is playing the blaming game, just like Wook.
It's so bad that I am too emotionally invested to this drama, the way So's changing breaks my heart. If it were Wook, I would have accepted it. But because it was So, I thought things would be different. I thought he would have a way.
And the worst thing is, it seems like So is never going to find out what Yeon Hwa did in the past. She is one of the most evil ones, and ends up being the happiest one, the only one who achieves exactly what she wants.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 11:32 AM

@Lily, I don't think Yeonwha will be happy for long....already So has trapped her in his web and is using her as a pawn to bring down Wook...it franky scares me to think what Yeonwhas life will be like when So turns completely Gwangjong....if Soo isn't there....Yeonwha will spend years trying to protect the thing she hoped would give her happiness (her son). I read that the real Gwangjong could have killed his own son, since he saw him as a threat.....I don't foresee wedded bliss ahead for Yeonwha...

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Lily

October 26, 2016 at 11:47 AM

The point is, Yeon Hwa made it very clear that she's no longer interested in love, all she wants is power. Unlike the last Queen (So's mother), she does not care if Soo is still there and So does not love her, she just wants to become Queen, and then mother of the next King. Because she sets her goal very clearly, I don't think she's going to suffer much. And according to history, she's going to get what she wants (and she even managed to get married to the very man she is emotionally attracted to, which drives me crazy :)))).

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 1:23 PM

@Lily, you might be right...but I've learned to delve deeper into these characters, none of them have been written one dimensionally, and Yeonwha would be the only one if this is her storyline...she gets what she wants 100%, and stays evil , focused and manages all her dreams, no character change or growth...she would be the first.....I have a feeling it's not going to be that well packaged for Yeonwha....her mother warned her "Love or the throne?", Yeonwha picked the throne...but the first thing she does when she arrives at palace is try to persuade So to drop Soo....she is very jealous of Soo and the relationship she has with So...she might say she doesn't need love but her actions say "I'm desperate..."...as someone on Soompi commented about Yeonwha putting on the mask to fool So into sleeping with her....When Yeonwha has to pretend to be Soo to have Wang So be with her....remember she confessed to So at some point she too was a woman and had feelings for him....she wants So, all of him not just the title...which brings us back to her mother who was the Queen married to Taejo but never winning his heart...It was only with time that she understood Lady Oh held the Kings heart, only Lady Oh...she lived without love and understands what will happen to Yeonwha better than Yeonwha does....she also I'm pretty sure knows Yeonwha has feelings for So, since even Wook knew...yet she still said throne or love....but in that dream weaving state Yeonwha is in, like most royal family members, she believes she will get it all , love and throne...which is why she answers I want the world....if there is one thing we learn from the throne wanting and getting are two different things...

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Lily

October 26, 2016 at 2:34 PM

I know a woman may never avoid the jealousy tragedy, but maybe because I resent Yeon Hwa's actions so much, just seeing her never be able to be loved by her husband is not good enough. And So even decides to have baby with her and promises to make her the ONLY Queen. I'm quite sensitive to those stuffs, so when I watched that scene I was like "So, are you crazy!!!!!" and just wanted to jump into the screen and kill both of them TT_TT.
Sorry for being so provoked, but what I mean is, Yeon Hwa was the one who caused Court Lady Oh's death, sent Eun and Seon Deok to death, ruined Wook, Soo and So's lives, so any possible consequence to her does not seem to be good enough for me. You are right, living without love may be a punishment for her, it's still unjust to me. And among characters who lost their lives, lost their love, lost their loved ones, lost their positions, lost their souls, I still think Yeon Hwa is the most lucky one.

Kiara

October 26, 2016 at 3:03 PM

Goryeo marriage was about politics and power. Yeon Hwa is not after the queen's seat for love. Her own parents didn't marry for love. She is a Goryeo princess who understand that without power her life would be decided by those who holds the power like Wang Yo.

She is not a love sick puppy from the 21st century. Wang So is a little slow here and need to be reminded that in order to have heirs to the throne he'd have to sleep with his wife.

Props to Kang Han-na for slaying Yeon Hwa's role.

Nae

October 27, 2016 at 7:00 PM

@Kiara
I agree with everything you said. Yeonhwa gave Hae Soo & Wang So a much needed reality check.
Yes Kang Hanna is slaying as Yeonhwa.

118 Lorelai

October 26, 2016 at 11:25 AM

For anyone who is not in a good mood with dearest Moon Lovers (like me), I just found a Chill Pill

I heard it was fake but oh whatever.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 11:36 AM

this is hilarious...LOL

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Lorelai

October 26, 2016 at 12:11 PM

The thing is I LOLed and was jumping and blushing watching them (exactly like them) hahahahhahahaa. Everbody relax and take a chill pill :D

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Barbrey

October 26, 2016 at 2:29 PM

Hahahaha! Loved it!

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JoseMiro

October 26, 2016 at 5:00 PM

OMG ... I died laughing for a moment .. but now crying again .. it will not gonna happen again with So/Soo, my ship has already sinking deep..deep.. under the water *sob

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119 Shinubiwang

October 26, 2016 at 11:34 AM

It was odd that Su was portrayed as a woman who was naive and dense since she came from the 21st century. Unless she does not know history or at least watched Kdramas. If she had not, then which cave had she been hiding in Korea, All Koreans watch Kdramas.

I would have liked it more had they portrayed Su as savvy, since she came from the 21st century. Her knowledge of the 'future' would have placed her in a very powerful position. She would not have become queen and changed history but was a powerful concubine. Since this was fiction, some liberty could be taken for such portrayals.

Instead we see this loathsome character, starry eyed with 'love', flitting among brothers. Perhaps she was a promiscuous woman in the 21st century but acting all so innocent.

One thing about women, when you give her all your love she becomes big headed. This is clearly seen in Su's character. This is compounded by the kdramas' forever portrayal of Korean men as pussies, those that let women wrap them around their dainty fingers.

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 11:42 AM

That's some blatant misogyny right there.

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Ruby

October 27, 2016 at 11:16 PM

I agree with Seltzerwater.

Just because Hae Soo freely spoke and interacted with the princes does not mean she slept around in modern day Korea.

She came from the 21st century where women could speak freely with men. The irony though is she had to change into this passive character in order to survive a brutal era where women who were poor and not backed by a powerful family were deemed worthless.

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Yoyo

October 26, 2016 at 11:59 AM

Question, will the woman's head become smaller if the love is taken away?

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 12:16 PM

LOLOLOL

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Barbrey

October 26, 2016 at 2:30 PM

Lol! Omigod, the visual!

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Kiara

October 26, 2016 at 3:06 PM

You are killing me Yoyo lol.

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Cocobeans

October 26, 2016 at 1:05 PM

"This is compounded by the kdramas’ forever portrayal of Korean men as pussies, those that let women wrap them around their dainty fingers"

Euuhm, what Kdrama's have you been seeing? Because most of the time the men are wrist grabbing, self centered jerks with bad tempers and even worse perms (yes lee Min Ho, i'm looking at you! )when they meet the girl.What you call being turned into p**sies the rest of us might consider becoming "decent human beings"

I'm with you though on the idiot female lead trope being used most of the time.Some start out as sassy, but as soon as love comes around, the end up being noble idiots or candy candy girls. seems the only kick a** females that are allowed to stay that way are ghosts or mermaids.

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JoseMiro

October 26, 2016 at 5:14 PM

mmm..excuse me .. What is exactly can we (21st century people) do in 10th century Goryeo time just by watching KDrama or knowing well of the history ?

Watching and experiencing is not the same, we can watch a bloody murder, head shot on movies without blink an eye, try that in real life .. when blood, brain tissue all over the place

Ha Jin is only a regular working girl in present time, she's not wonder woman,not a soldier, not a scientist ..just like all of us in here (sorry if there are really a soldier and scientist in here, I just assume that we are just common people)

In the history, there is no place for Soo, not even as concubine, she does not exist in any history record, if you watch enough drama you will know.. now one can mess-up with history.. you can bend a little but it always flowing to the same direction

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Napkiin

October 26, 2016 at 9:25 PM

....Wow, are you related to Trump? So much hate for women geez.

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120 jesci

October 26, 2016 at 11:43 AM

why Wang So gets upsets when he comes to know about Wook/HaeSo? She did tell him she has feelings for someone else.. and he threatened that he would kill anyone else other than 14 prince..

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jesci

October 26, 2016 at 11:47 AM

a guy forecefully kissed your brother's girl friend (that time he didn't know ofcourse), but still he knew she didn't like him that way and she likes someone else... that was so bad .. he is just as crazy as the others.. just HaeSo made him tolerable until all hell broke loose...

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banini

October 26, 2016 at 6:28 PM

Precisely, realizing it was Wook all along, So would think Su only went to him to protect Wook and not because she truly loved him.

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transient

October 27, 2016 at 12:03 AM

Remember when Su made So promise not to kill Wook when Wook and Yo attempted to seize the throne for the first time? I just hope So does not remember thi in the episode 19

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banini

October 27, 2016 at 12:39 AM

And let's hope he wouldn't learn of Hae Su's tearful warning to Wook not to get in So's way, which Wook kept repeating in the dark where Yeon Hwa was listening.

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121 Maui

October 26, 2016 at 11:56 AM

for the So/Soo shippers....I amderanged and know it posted this in Kissasian and I thought it was a great way to express hope for love to conquer all..."I will never forget Wang So's patience and how it had no end when he waited for her to fall in love with him, he is persistent, she is his world, his "queen" as he called her, someone like him will never let her go. She came from another time just to meet him, to heal him, to sit on the throne of his heart, her trust was betrayed many times, after she discovered how he loves her, her heart will never let him go. I want to believe that they will be together because, their love won't just go away, it will not fade, the words WS kept repeating "I am yours" and "You are mine" have a great meaning : You are my soul, I am yours, If two people were ever meant to be, it's Wang So and Hae Soo, My point : the writer will not just tare them apart with a sad ending, their love is an unchangeable truth; time, throne, others, scars, nothing means anything if someone loves that much. Plus I trust my director-nim he said somewhere that the journey is sad but the ending is happy."

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JoseMiro

October 26, 2016 at 8:07 PM

... Baby sometimes love just ain't enough..

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122 Queen Zero

October 26, 2016 at 11:59 AM

Yeah I read all the arguments about Su's state of mind after reading the letter. I'm still not convinced and irritated with her as hell. Here are the things I blame for it.

The scene with Su after that could have give her dialogue to further that 'I've become a lovesick blind idiot' narrative but instead she complains about how So could have killed Chae Ryung like that despite Baek Ah giving a lenghtly explanation as to why. And then she continues crying about his cruelty bla bla bla and then asks him to give Jung her hairpin with the hidden message to leave.

IU's acting is again underwhelming. When the camera zooms out on her as she has finished reading the letter her heads turns left to right with wide open eyes that looks more like a confused person than someone realizing the paralell between herself and Chae Ryung.

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transient

October 27, 2016 at 12:08 AM

I read the scene where she turned her head left and right after reading the letter as her finally realizing that she is now alone, in the gilded cage. So was nowhere around (and since he never explained it to her, she must have assumed that he's enjoying his marital bliss with Yeon Hwa) and the only friend that she had in the palace, Chae Ryung, is now gone. Su is all alone now in the vast palace.

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123 wackycashew

October 26, 2016 at 12:29 PM

Thanks for the recap, Heads!

I have a lot to say and jotted my thoughts down before I can forget or change my views. XD I'll be splitting up my posts to fit the character limit.

One scene I didn't like that was shown in SBS vs. international version was the night when So got married to YH. After he goes off and sees Su with CR, he later returns to a room. International showed YH alone in the room and SBS showed Su alone in the room. The former makes a lot more sense to me and the two scenes send completely messages. I don't know why they would stick the Su scene in instead. He should've been back to the palace before her since she was still with CR at the praying towers. So giving YH the cold shoulder is what would've been natural.

I didn't like So getting mad at Su. As much as he has been neglected from childhood and as much as he sticks to his reasoning, he can't automatically assume that Su will always understand him and be understanding of him. This just means that no matter what he does, he expects Su to accept it, especially if he considers it to be for her own good. However, nothing was ever communicated beforehand for either the Jung or the CR incident. Hence, I felt that So was being unreasonable.

In the case of Jung, preventing him from seeing their mom one last time was a bit much to me. And even the punishment of banishment with death as the ultimate sentence should Jung ever set foot in the palace was too much for me. I can understand that he doesn't have the same relationship with Jung anymore since he felt doubted and threatened by Jung regarding the throne and his relationship with Mom. But he can just send him off to guard the borders or something for Goryeo's safety instead of restricting him to his hometown. With General Park gone, does So have no concern for someone reliable and experienced to lead the army? Even if he and Jung are not on the same side, does he not have faith enough that since they are blood brothers and knowing Jung, Jung would never resort to killing? Jung also has no interest in the throne. The only thing that can make So feel threatened would more likely be Jung is willing to protect Su at all costs if she ever expresses the desire to leave or if she no longer feels happy.

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wackycashew

October 26, 2016 at 12:31 PM

Also, the whole situation of just letting Jung stand there without food or water for days while he tends to Mom alone just didn't sit well with me. I think one of the worst experiences is not being able to bid a proper good-bye to a loved one if you have the chance to do so. In this case, Jung clearly had the opportunity to send Mom off; however, So usurped that from him. Just cuz he himself wants to send Mom off doesn't mean he needs to ban Jung from spending time with Mom. In fact, he could technically give Jung a few minutes with Mom, then he can send him away again and carry on tending to her all he wants. Why hog that time all to yourself, giving more reason for Jung to build his resentment towards you, for Su to begin to not comprehend you (knowing she's close to different princes and her tendency to be considerate of and self-sacrificing for others), and knowing that if you had this chance taken away from you, you would be so angered because this is the kind of regret you would bear lifelong? I think there is understanding, but only up to a certain point. Nobody, no matter how much she loves you, can always understand you 100% ALL the time. (I personally can't understand this selfishness and pride because my worldview for this situation is more like Su's.) Not to mention, didn't they agree to be honest with each other? If he wanted Su to understand him (which she can't readily do so in this case because it goes against her own philosophy), then he needs to prep her beforehand, just like how he told her he wanted to be king. He needs to tell her that this is his "last chance" with Mom and desperately needs Mom's attention before she passes. THEN, maybe she can somehow wrap her head around why Jung is not allowed to see Mom.

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JoseMiro

October 26, 2016 at 5:35 PM

Agree on this... prevent someone to send their parent (not just a loved one) off is morally and plainly wrong .. it will become a regret for a life time

It's not just about siding to others or not understanding WS well, but his action is really can't be tolerated

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wackycashew

October 27, 2016 at 11:53 AM

Exactly! And I think that's why Su felt so exasperated when So said that she was on Jung's side. She really wasn't! What he did was simply unreasonable.

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darkheart

October 27, 2016 at 1:20 AM

Maybe WS was trying to spare Queen SMS the pain of seeing Jung's sideburns...

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wackycashew

October 27, 2016 at 11:53 AM

Pwahahahaha! Those sideburns do make me wanna take a razor to shave them all off!! :P

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wackycashew

October 26, 2016 at 12:32 PM

Then, with CR... I know she's done many atrocious things, so So had no reason to feel any sort of remorse with his merciless order to have her beaten to death. What I had issues with is that he is fully aware of Su's close relationship with CR and they are like sisters. Also, since she requested for CR to stay on her behalf, So should know that Su still has no clue all the things that CR has done. If he truly wants Su to stay away from CR, he really needed to explain to Su what has been going on all along, and not AFTER THE FACT, when CR is already dead. Su has no mental or emotional preparation to reconcile what So is telling her as facts vs. how she personally feels based on her own experiences with CR. So could have warned her that there was a reason he wanted CR released from Damiwon, or that she was behind Moo's death, spying on her, making things hard for her and him, having a hand in Eun and SD's death, etc. You can't just spring this kind of "news" on someone, even if what you did was your attempt to protect her for her own good. It can't be denied that while CR was partaking in those horrible acts that she did treat Su with sincerity as much as possible for the most part (i.e., when she wasn't carrying out orders from Won/Wook). I partly agree with Su's interpretation that CR was only someone following orders and in love. Sure, CR wronged Su on multiple occasions, even putting Su's life at risk, and perhaps giving her the benefit of the doubt is too kind. But again, if it were me, I'd rather for the person that I love to sit me down and confront me with this knowledge so that I can make the decision to sever ties with this close friend whom I've known for many years than to just have her killed and I have to make sense of everything afterwards. There is just too wide of a gap between heart and head with these kinds of situations when it feels like you've been socked in the gut and you're just falling into an abyss. And the only explanation is pretty much just: I didn't want to tell you for your sake. But honestly, the palace is a place where news travel fast. Did he really think that this is something Su would never find out or chance upon on her own? He should have been frank with her before he issued the decree to have CR killed. He didn't take her feelings and potential reaction at all when he made his decision. That's pretty selfish and self-centered. If it were me, I'd rather have all the crimes spelled out for me so that I can make sense of it all, and then deliver the now understandable punishment for CR's heinous acts. Sure, I'd feel sad and upset at first. But then I would be able to get over it because I already knew this was coming and I have prepared myself mentally and emotionally for my friend's ultimate downfall.

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wackycashew

October 26, 2016 at 12:33 PM

I'm trying to think of a reverse situation... So is closest to BA out of all his bros. For argument's sake, let's say BA suddenly turned evil and starts plotting against So, harming him, putting him in danger, separating him from people that he treasures, even killing people that So cares about, etc. And let's say Su learns of this knowledge somehow. If she decides to kill BA "for So's sake" and only announces this news to So after the fact, would she truly expect So to just accept her actions and words? Would she honestly not think that So would be extremely upset and hateful towards her for doing that without informing or consulting him? Just like BA is "real family" to So, I think Su considers the same of CR. That's why I don't think this is something that So can just decide and sweep under the rug. He knew where the road was headed as he gathered more and more intel about what Yo, Wook, Won, and CR did. So, there was no way but to face this head-on someday. I just wished that he had dealt with things differently instead of just thinking that Su would understand. I have no problem that CR died; she deserved it. I had a problem with how all this affected Su because she was just dealt the blow with no prior knowledge.

To put things in perspective, Su HAS tried to understand So, which is why So's actions frustrated me so much in this ep. First, Su understood So's desire to become king. She didn't like it, but gave her full support nevertheless, even being the first one to prostrate herself before him, declaring him the new king; in essence, giving him that leverage to succession because no one else was with Yo in his final moments. Secondly, despite hating the fact that YH will be queen and marry So, Su recognized the truth in YH and CJM's words... She can only provide comfort to So, but not any political power and strength. She knew that So cannot survive as king on her love alone. Hence, she "let him go" and basically granted him permission to marry YH in order to secure his status as king. To me, that is Su's selfless act--sacrificing her dream to be with So and living a happy life together because she knows that So needs this marriage. You can argue that So doesn't love YH and she'd just be the queen/wife in title instead of in reality. But that is still something that Su needs to give up because she would have no status whatsoever while living in the palace, and in olden days, having the "wife status" is important. She's truly just staying there to remain by So's side because she loves him, even willing to be the "mistress" with no real status or title for his sake. I thought the proposal and her tearful response was a very touching scene.

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 2:08 PM

Your comment really makes me think. When Wang So reflects back on Hae Su's death, is he going to realize how much she gave up for him? Or will be a simple physical loss for him - that she was there for him but is no longer? I think the former is much more devastating. Because not only did he send her away because he was angry with her, he didn't recognize any of the things she did for him. If he could have that realization at the end, I would be satisfied.

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wackycashew

October 26, 2016 at 5:20 PM

Are you referring to the preview? But to answer your question, I believe he would not just think of it as physical loss. But I'd bet he will deeply regret sending her away. Let's wait till the next ep. to discuss. =)

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junah

October 26, 2016 at 7:30 PM

thanks @Lisa. I don't think Su ever be fully understood by man around her, not Wook, not even So. it's always them who needs to be understood by her. i am just happy Su come to her senses now. she should have listened Lady oh. for men, it will always be power over love. that's the awful truth.

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wackycashew

October 27, 2016 at 11:58 AM

Hi junah! I think they only understood to a certain point, or as long as it doesn't conflict with their own interest. And like you pointed out, it just so happened that both cases involved the desire for power/the throne. I think it's natural to disagree or have different perspectives because that's what always happens when there are two or more people. But it can't be one-sided only. With the recent developments, I really think Su has already tried as much and as hard as she could to understand So. However, he has stopped doing the same for her. There's only so much you can take before you completely lose yourself and what you stand for and believe in.

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Seltzerwater

October 27, 2016 at 12:10 PM

I really think Su has already tried as much and as hard as she could to understand So. However, he has stopped doing the same for her.

YEP. This is exactly why her relationship with WS isn't working any longer. They used to talk constantly and exchange ideas and feelings. Now that he's King, he doesn't have time to worry about Hae Su's feelings and ideas, and instead all his time is consumed with holding on to the throne. She has become his comfort, but not his confidant the way she was when he was a prince. (on the beach episode, he actually tells her that she is his only confidant). This really spells the end for them. Without her relationship with WS, there is really no reason for her to be in the palace, caged and intensely miserable. She wanted to stay by his side to support him, but she will find this life to be horribly suffocating.

wackycashew

October 26, 2016 at 12:34 PM

Another thing that bothered me... So blamed the royal physician for not informing him of Su's illness. But for someone who loves Su so much and knowing that she was being examined, if for whatever reason no report was given to him, would he not go ask the doctor or request his underling to bring the doctor to him? Or ask Su at least? Not that she would necessarily tell him the truth about her condition, but I just found that him being uninformed isn't really an excuse cuz he always has the means to obtain information if he really wants to know.

I'm waiting for how things will play out with Su and Jung because it seems that this is the direction we're headed. Honestly, as much as I love So, if I were Su, I would feel so stuffy in a palace and I'd just wanna get out of there ASAP, especially since So is now changing. Hence, I was just waiting to hear those three words from Su to Jung, and it happened before this ep. ended. No doubt, BA is gonna regret helping deliver her message.

One more thing that I didn't like... First, YH seemed so "considerate" in proposing how she and Su can co-exist. Next thing you know, she's telling So to get rid of her RIGHT after she gets married. Totally out of line and so much for her "promise." I knew her greed for So's love and attention cannot be tempered.

The main highlight for me this ep. was when So-Su got to go on a date to the market and enjoyed some happy moments together before we face more angst.

Bravo to LJG for the crying scene by Mom's deathbed. An excellent execution of the multitude of emotions in this heartfelt scene and I was totally on board with those conflicting feelings and his desperate yearning for a mother's love that was unattainable even as she neared her death. So yes, this is the kinda close-up that I dig!

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 1:29 PM

Beautifully said. This is my frustration with a lot of the hate directed at HS. She's been put in an impossible situation and asked to sacrifice for Wang So over and over again. She's done it with love and heart, but enough is enough. It's time for her to go.

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wackycashew

October 26, 2016 at 5:23 PM

I think all of us has a breaking/tipping point. We can love, understand, and even sacrifice--however, this is not limitless. That is just not humanly possible; we are not God or saints. So, I didn't like how Su was supposed to just understand and go along with So no matter what. She has reached her breaking point and can't tolerate this anymore. It's bad on her physically and she's mentally and emotionally tired of being in the palace.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 5:16 PM

@Lisa-wackycashew...thank you for sharing...I enjoyed your analysis...did the physician that examined Hae Soo tell the King about So's heart problems?

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wackycashew

October 26, 2016 at 5:33 PM

Hi Maui! Just call me Lisa. ^^ Thanks for reading!! It wasn't shown that he reported to So about Su. So, we are to assume that the physician just believed that Su would tell So like she said she would. And it seems like she didn't. I don't think she wanted to add to his burden while he's trying to secure his position as king. Not like she can say: BTW, I'm really sick... I might not be able to walk at all in the future; in fact, the doctor told me I only have 10 years left to live.

But my point was like this... In modern day terms, let's say a family member or friend told you she's going to see the doctor, maybe for a check-up or get some tests done. If you were concerned, you'd likely ask her how things went. And if you don't get an answer, and perhaps suspects something, you'd likely try to find out from the doctor who was responsible to get some answers. So might not know too much about the heart palpitations since I don't think he's ever really witnessed her in those moments even though CJM has. But So is definitely aware of her knees being bad, having been with her in that moment when she was kneeling in the rain. Not to mention when she was tortured and he visited her in the cell. So, I have to think that So can't possibly just assume that Su is all better now...

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 5:37 PM

Thanks Lisa, that makes sense now....

transient

October 27, 2016 at 12:24 AM

I agree with Lisa. I don't think the doctor told the result of his examination to So either. I think the doctor is internally relieved when Su offered to tell the king herself. No doctor in that era wants to tell the king, a scary one at that, that his beloved is dying soon. I've seen the doctor in other sageuk being killed just because he delivered the bad news to the king. Hence in this case, the doctor is more than happy to let Su tell the king about her health herself.

wackycashew

October 27, 2016 at 12:01 PM

@transient I didn't think about that, but you are right on the money with this one. Knowing how temperamental kings can be, you NEVER wanna be the deliverer of bad news. Telling So that Su is very ill and is not likely to get better would've been a death sentence to the physician.

banini

October 26, 2016 at 6:04 PM

About the doctor: Since So doesn't seem to be aware of any health concern with Su (the limp is not evident now, and she probably tried not to show it when they were together), not getting a report may have meant to him that there was no problem. He got busy after that - the marriage, losing support, mom and chae ryung - more obvious concerns for him to attend to. She had the check up not because she was sick but only for routine health check so maybe her being sick was far from So's mind.

On Yeon Hwa: Yes she proposed they co-exist, but since So totally disregarded her as a woman it dawned on her that it wouldn't work at that rate. She was wiling to share the man assuming he would give both the time of the day but she wasn't getting her end of the bargain - to be queen and produce an heir. As she is also pragmatic, she knows So's devotion to Su will only bring danger to the throne and make him a weak king which would alsomaffect her position. Maybe it would have worked if So gave her what she wanted, the target would move away from Su's back. Remember it worked between her mom and Lady Oh, they were friends even.

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wackycashew

October 27, 2016 at 12:14 PM

About the doctor: I know So had many things occupying his mind. Perhaps it's the weirdness of the scripted lines. I personally found it odd that the reason So requested for Su to be examined is to check whether she is physically sound to bear children. Not because of her bad knees--a previously known condition even if it might not be obvious now, or just a check-up for the sake of making sure that she's healthy with no additional reasons.

On Yeon Hwa: Honestly, if YH ever thought she had a chance against Su, and so soon after marriage, she's either naive about love, over-confident about her own attractiveness, or delusional. I thought she had better plotting skills than this. She has already secured the position of queen. Having an heir would actually come in due time. Even if So hates it, he would have no choice but to produce an heir due to political pressure--exactly how he had to succumb to marrying YH as queen. So, to me, there was no necessity to hurry this process along because it will inevitably happen unless So decides to marry more girls and produce through them instead. In which case, I believe YH would be smart enough to prevent that from happening, or just know that it wouldn't be easy since in Goryeo, they preferred to keep the bloodline within the royal family.

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transient

October 27, 2016 at 12:19 AM

I think So did not know that Su was ill because he had not been visiting Su since his marriage with Yeon Hwa. I assumed this given how he reacted when he was first betrothed to Mu's daughter. At that time, he was consumed with guilt thinking that he had broken his promise to her. His guilt has caused lack of communication and meeting between them at that time. Therefore, this time around, he is still behaving in the same manner. Remember during his wedding night when he went to look for Su only to turn around when he saw CR comforting Su and later his hesitation to enter Su's room and chose to leave instead? He is behaving in the same manner. Therefore, it is safe to assume that this time around too, he felt too guilty to visit Su after marrying Yeon Hwa. Thus, he blew his top when he found out that his beloved has been sick.

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Seltzerwater

October 27, 2016 at 8:08 AM

Yes. Thanks for this. Given how he acted after his first marriage, I think it's really true that WS acts first and decides later how it's going to affect HS. Many times, it was a necessary course of action, like him taking the poison for her so that she would not be executed but tortured instead. But in this case, him marrying YH and his enormous guilt for betraying Hae Su again is just adding to the wedge between them. There's no way that Hae Su has any reason to be in the palace other than him. And if he shuts down and stops talking to her, she truly has no reason to be there. I think that's what we're watching now. The aftermath of both of them realizing that the end is near and now the wreckages of the end of their relationship. Waaah, so sad just writing this.

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wackycashew

October 27, 2016 at 12:42 PM

Agreed! I think So's way of thinking is that if he finds it logical and necessary, he will go for it no matter the consequence or who gets affected. I don't think he takes a lot of people's feelings into consideration besides his own. This could be the result of his upbringing when no one truly cared about him. So, he probably thinks that if this is the best way to resolve things, he will not hold back. With everything going on in the palace, what's happened with Eun-SD, and now Jung and CR, I think Su can no longer just keep on understanding So and rely on their love alone. The palace isn't an optimal place for her deterioting health either. So, if she can't seem to get through to So and make him understand her views, I think she's just too tired and worn out to keep fighting this battle daily. She just wants to escape and have her peace of mind, more for survival and sanity, if anything.

wackycashew

October 27, 2016 at 12:34 PM

I think despite how So might be feeling, he was still keeping an eye on Su, as evident by him visiting her at the prayer towers and witnessing her with CR. I can understand the feelings of guilt, and I agree that by default, his reaction is non-confrontational. So, I can attribute that he didn't know about Su's sickness because he hasn't seen her with short breath and beating her chest. I was more hoping that he would have her health checked cuz of her knees, which he knew about, but not the heart palpitations.

Yes, the lack of communication is one main reason that the conflicts continue to occur between So and Su. And like you said, he's still doing the same thing the second time around. But actually, by reacting like this, he's actually not giving Su the benefit of the doubt for being able to understand, and in essence, not having enough faith in their love. What's different this time is that Su was fully aware of the need for So to marry YH; in fact, she completely yielded to this decision anecdote gave him to the go-ahead with the marriage. Compared that to Moo's daughter's marriage, which she had zero knowledge of beforehand and did not get any sort of explanation till quite a bit later. I know So would still feel bad and guilty at breaking another promise again, but at least this time, Su was well-informed of it. This is something that they can work out and overcome.

However, what's really driving them apart is So's lack of understanding of Su's thoughts and feelings. Yet he expects to be understood. I found So's angry reaction to the doctor as his way of directing the blame elsewhere... He couldn't quite blame himself for directly causing Su to faint because of CR's death, so he attributed this fainting to Su's illness, which means he's shifting the blame to the doctor. But the fact remains that even if Su was completely healthy, she would still have fainted because witnessing CR being beaten to death would've been too much of a shock for her regardless.

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wackycashew

October 27, 2016 at 12:36 PM

*"anecdote" should be "and" (typo XD)

Jamie Opso

October 27, 2016 at 8:52 PM

Great insights, transient, Seltzerwater, and Lisa! I wondered what all that hesitation was about, outside her room. Likely not just guilt over marrying Yeon Hwa, but also (judging from his angry expression when he saw Chae Ryung comforting Hae Soo) guilt over knowing he will have CR executed--without informing Hae Soo first, to boot. He is definitely an act first, deal with consequences afterward (or avoid for a while out of guilty feelings) person.

This show really does make us work. When I first saw his face when he saw CR and HS together, I thought "What the heck is that about? Is he jealous of CR?" Another show might have shown him finding about CR's treason first--then we'd get it. Instead, we are always piecing things together, following a trail of clues. Thank goodness for the insights of Beanies!

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124 Cocobeans

October 26, 2016 at 12:33 PM

Ok Both Hae soo and several things have been bugging me in this drama, so as it comes to an end i'm going to list (a few of)them
1. Ji-mong and King Taejon always telling Soo that the destiny of someone who has visions is to just watch and keep still. Really?With Ji-Mong using the remnants of everything he remembers of his past life to weasel himsel up to high rank of Royal Astrologer and adviser and using that to not only survive 1 but 4 kings in a row? Nt to mention the King T himself using Ji-mongs knowledge (disguised as star reading) to further himself. No, they just don't want a WOMAN to use her knowledge because in their mind, woman are only good enough to use for entertainment, enslavement or to breed heirs.not a fan of Jimong obviously.
2.Hae Soo's attitude, the girl is really the autor of her own miserable life for the simple reason she lets everyone take advantage of her just because she has this self entitled idea that it will al be ok because in the end "she deserves to be happy because she suffered and she's a good person".

If she had left with the court lady and opened a pharmacy in the court ladies childhood town, both she and the lady would have been happy, and possibly wealthy and loved.
After the king sent her away, she should have requested to leave the palace, use the neclace the crown prince gave her as a starting fund.If she started an herb and soap trade, she would have made enough money selling to all the rich lady's of goryo,enough to have money and influence to actually be able to marry one of the princess.(since money and power are the only requirements a women needs it would seem to be able to get married) but no she let herself be degraded as a washing maid.
After Moo became king, she could yet again have chosen to leave the palace,asked for retirement but nope, she watches the king go mad and at no point after that poison episode that cost court lady oh's life did she suspect foul play? or thought ahead of what might happen after the (mad) king died?
3.her relationship with So.In the beginning,she understands this is what he has to do to survive, but the more she witnesses just how bad and dangerous things are, even after personaly being tortured, she thinks he reacts too badly? the worse things get for them, the more she thinks he should not kill/be cruel has less understanding?
The death of CR is typical, this girl was instrumental to the death of her friend the crown prince, a slow and agonising death, caused the death of innocent Eun and Seun dok,put HS in danger too, she spied on her all the time,despite being offered a way out continued to make soo and so 's life miserable, and yet she regrets nothing and even has the nerve to ask soo to "take care of her family" but soo thinks the punishment is too much? Frankly i would have kept her in a cage in the town square and fed her the same mercury she gave Moo over the span of weeks and months.She got off easy. End of this rant :)

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Barbrey

October 26, 2016 at 3:16 PM

I think she'll come to see all that about CR, she's just trying to process it all right now.

Re: Ji Mong. He and Su need to have a much longer conversation about her presence in Goryeo. I can just barely accept she had so few questions for HIM, but why doesn't he have a hundred for HER? Major character plothole for me.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 5:24 PM

@Barbrey good point on Ji Mong...excellent point, I want to have a truthful conversation with Ji Mong and ask questions and have him ask them too....I want some truths to come out in the next 2 episodes...no more holding back, is my motto,Soo has limited time now in Goryeo ...

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125 Hye Mi

October 26, 2016 at 12:42 PM

Lol while you guys are arguing over Soo's ditching So and the palace for CR I'm sitting here chuckling over the so-called 'sisterhood' and 'friendship' between our two ladies.

DISCLAIMER: No offence and sarcasm intended to you guys.

I think the root of the problem (at least for me) is that I don't buy HS and CR's friendship. HS keeps saying CR is like her sister, and to give the show credit the writer did insert scenes to show that one of them is willing to do good things for the other. Still, I don't get that intimate vibe between them. I don't feel the closeness that is supposed to make CR equivalent to HS's first and last relative since she landed in Goryeo. I don't feel a friendship that moves, one that would make one lashes out at even her romantic partner for hurting the other.

There has always been something very lacking about their friendship; that is, they are willing to cover for each other but has never actually sit down and confide in each other about their past and present and future, their love and even ideals. Only moments before CR's death did the show snap out of it and thrust one intimate bonding moment between the two girls so that the viewers can sympathise with CR and hopefully nod in agreement that CR is like HS's sister.

Yes, I can buy the idea that CR's death is the last straw on HS's back, only if their friendship were portrayed in a better, more convincing manner. For a superficial friendship such as this HS's decision has lost much of its weight and impact which is needed for a fatal blow to her tolerance.

And yes I agree with many out there that CR did have agency. It's true that she was coerced into committing crimes but she willingly submitted herself to the coercion, in the sense that she felt little to no remorse about her actions afterwards.

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junah

October 26, 2016 at 7:02 PM

I think the root of the problem (at least for me) is that I don’t buy HS and CR’s friendship.

Because every friendship moment decided by writer to be offscreen, just like the all relationship in this show.

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126 Cocobeans

October 26, 2016 at 12:48 PM

i just want HS to go back to her life in the 21st century after she dies in Goryo and i wanna see her get saved by a goodlooking guy.
I want her former best friend and the ex be arrested as swindlers so she no longer has the debt collectores behind her.
Due to her saving the boy she becomes a bit of a hero celebrity.
On the way to her new job in her own succesfull bio -cosmetics shop,courtasy of a bank clerck who is a fan of the child saving girl and persuaded the bank manager to sign off on the loan(see what i did there? no chaebol boyfriend who buys her stuff) she sees a couple of teenagers -tweens being all lovey dovey.
Hey! they look just like Eun and Soon Dok, and look, father in law (the general) is behind them, scolding them for their overt display of affection and moaning that he let his daughter "get married too soon to this immature guy, but she was so persuasive" (i love the general).
Oh look, the art director that is doing the adds for the shop looks just like Baek Ah and his assistant looks suspiciously like woohee. Naturally art director Baek Ah has a younger brother who is a martial arts instructor..oh hardly recognised him without the ugly sideburns but isnt that Jung?
And then ofcourse there is the goodlooking guy who fished her out of the water..as he picks her up for their date he slowly turns and we see his face and its......(insert prince of choice here, just not nr 9, even yo is allowed but not 9)

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pickledplumtree

October 26, 2016 at 1:46 PM

This is great.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 5:27 PM

LOL....

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127 pickledplumtree

October 26, 2016 at 1:43 PM

So many thoughts and feelings in this ep! Queen mom's end was so "eh." Queen Hwangbo got so dark. I wanted to smack that smile off of Yeon Hwa's mouth when she was married. I did like the conclusion with Chae Ryung's motives, love for Won, and lack of free will. So is done for me. He went off the deep end real quick. He's so upset about Soo being upset with him that he'll just go make babies with Yeon Hwa to get revenge on Wook? Like...that just doesn't quite add up to make any logical sense. Teaming up with Yeon Hwa in that sort of way is not how he's going to feel better about the Soo situation. Poor fool. This episode was definitely very stressful!

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Pei

October 26, 2016 at 7:40 PM

@pickledplumtree me too! She's grining ear to ear like Chesire cat all along the wedding -_-"

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transient

October 27, 2016 at 12:34 AM

Same here. I had been wanting to punch Yeon Hwa when strutted into Su's room like she was already the queen.

Though, kudos for the actress for delivering her character.

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pineapplegongzhu

October 27, 2016 at 4:20 AM

Hey pickledplumtree!

To answer your "cinnamon" question, it was ab tumblr meme that started it all.

We posted the photo on the Google Hangout chat, but I also saved it on my phone, so the next time you're on Hangout, I'll post it for you to see! :)

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pickledplumtree

October 27, 2016 at 3:45 PM

Hi PineappleGongzhu!!!!

After you left someone mentioned that it originated on tumblr. I looked it up on KnowYourMeme and it finally made perfect sense!

"Beautiful Cinnamon Roll Too Good For This World, Too Pure is the headline for a satirical article published by The Onion in early 2014, which subsequently became an exploitable catchphrase used on Tumblr to describe adorable, charismatic or otherwise sympathetic fictional characters."

I didn't see the picture, though. Thanks for saving it!!! I'll see you on the hangout soon! :D

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128 LillyLee

October 26, 2016 at 2:02 PM

After This -
I am totally going to avoid this sites coverage of a remake because SOME PEOPLE just cannot resist throwing spoilers out right and left.
As much as I really enjoy the comments of most, the spoiler of SOME PEOPLE just ruin it.

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129 Barbrey

October 26, 2016 at 3:03 PM

I have a question I want your opinion on. What did you guys make of So's bending in to Yeon Hwa as if to kiss her in that one scene? And then, in one version, where he pauses outside her door?

The drama seemed to me to be telling us that he is still very attracted to her. Also, somewhat worrying, that close proximity to her might crash down that wall of loyalty to Su. I know I found myself saying "uh-oh" in both scenes.

Su has basically been squeezed into a place where the only thing she has in life to hold onto is So. I found these two scenes very threatening to Su because it was like even So was still in question.

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 3:38 PM

Yeah, the show is telling us that Hae Su is in a precarious position. It's even more solid reason for her to leave the palace. I can't imagine her being in the palace while Wang So goes back and forth between YH and HS. Even YH pointed out that it only took a mask to mistake her for Hae Su when WS was drunk. That's a super close call on his part. That he was able to pull himself back is only really a small comfort. Also, we know what happens historically.

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Lemon Meringue

October 26, 2016 at 3:46 PM

Hey Barbrey

I take it as signs that he knows what's expected of him as king, married to his queen. He's not stupid, he knows he eventually has to beget heirs. And those actions were deliberate, like he's seeing if he can go through with it.

But if put in a position where he needs to act on his instincts, like when he found himself almost kissing YH in the mask, he recoils from her. That's when his true feelings for YH surface.

Unfortunately and probably realistically, he will eventually sleep with her. Once he has accepted that HS is lost to him, his pragmatic nature will win.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 5:31 PM

@Barbrey, I saw alot of missing scenes in the International version vs. the SBS version....this one was one of them....in the SBS version So stops outside Hae Soo's bedroom, she is curled up inside and he wants to go in but hesitates...In the international version So stops outside Hae So's door but instead we see the Yeonwha?...

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Baek

October 27, 2016 at 12:57 AM

Only watch SBS version so far.. like that also can? zzz different ppl inside different versions?

But hae-soo inside sounds more logical.. He already rejected Yeonhwa advances during their wedding night, why would he want to go back there again? (even if married, i think its no big deal to sleep separate room?)

Instead for Soo, it sounds more logical.. he spotted her with chae-ryung at the praying stones.. and she seems needing of some comfort on his wedding day.. but he couldnt bring himself to interrupt/face her.. then he went to her bedroom after, but still couldnt get the courage to face her..

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banini

October 26, 2016 at 5:15 PM

The almost kiss came across as mockery to me, like "So you want this? Sorry, you're not gonna get it." In my country's language, to make her feel "bitin", initiating sexual tension then suddenly dropping her. So cruel but so good to burn Yeon Hwa.

The pause: after he saw CR & HS? I thought that was Hae Su's door, wasn't it? I'm confused (as always, hehe!). I thought he wanted to go to Hae Su to comfort each other, assuming she had gone back already. I was actually cheering go in, go in!!!

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Spi

October 30, 2016 at 3:48 AM

I see this more like So is using YH as the last resort. After seeing how much Su hated him for killing CR, So was even more angered. He blamed Wook for making him a bad lover and for pushing him to a corner as a King. He even said "How dare they use the throne as a bait". I don't think if he decided to produce an heir with YH it was because he gave in to her herself. He was trying to turn the table back to Wook by using Wook's sister. He knew that YH is not stupid so he had to trade something in order to get his revenge. All in all, I don't think this has anything to do with whether he was attracted to YH or not. It is and will be completely motivated by, like others have also said, a pragmatic reason.

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130 Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 3:40 PM

I've been thinking about this too much, but I think I understand why Wang So freaks out about Hae Su's marriage proposal to Wook all those years ago. In addition to Wook becoming his most hated enemy, responsible for killing Mu (beloved brother), indirectly resulting in the death of Eun (also beloved brother), but that Hae Su said YES to Wook.

If we look back at Wang So's proposal, HS has consistently said no because of various different reasons; the last one being the most self-sacrificing. However, in a moment of anger, I can see how Wang So won't be able to see her reason was to protect him, but rather that she ONLY rejects him, but not Wook.

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banini

October 26, 2016 at 5:28 PM

I think aside from knowing she almost married Wook, he will also know that she warned Wook about him. Those and her constant don't kill your brothers, don't kill Wook would probably add up to So as Su's reason for going steady with him, not because she loves him but to save Wook. It will cast doubt over Su's real feelings for him and reason for supporting his rise to the throne. He will lose all trust in her and her feelings enough to let her go.

Maybe the show portraying Su's love as somewhat confusing was deliberate, so that we will understand how So would doubt her as well when the Wook issue comes.

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Maui

October 26, 2016 at 5:34 PM

@Seltzerwater,technically Soo never said yes to Wook...Lady Oh interrupted them....

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junah

October 26, 2016 at 6:54 PM

she did ask wook to marry her and live outside palace before Taejo rebellion.

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transient

October 27, 2016 at 12:40 AM

But Wook was already on the dark side back then. So he rejected her in his subtle Wook-way.

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131 pickledplumtree

October 26, 2016 at 3:44 PM

And another thing...

even if YH was super self-conscious of So's love for Su being between them on their wedding night...it seems so unlikely she'd just bring up So getting rid of Su at that moment. I feel like she might have at least tried to keep Su out of the picture for the night and try to say something about THEM. Talk about blowin' it!

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132 jaepooh

October 26, 2016 at 4:45 PM

I honestly couldn't figure out also why Soo was like leave now that So has done the ultimatum on my dongsaeng. I agree with Heads that he did explain everything, Baek Ah even said that he tried to keep Chae Ryung alive by letting her leave the palace.

But all Soo could think about was how she was "beaten like a dog". I will try to understand her because she was from the modern era but to be honest, I actually thought she has already given up on that idea.

I can't help but think that she's doing this go to Jung only to pay homage to the original. But I'm sad it wasn't delivered properly to make me believe that her pain was valid.

And on a completely unrelated note to this drama, I just read this post about how "One's pain will always be valid." So maybe that's why I just keep on hanging on to this drama despite everything else.

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JoseMiro

October 26, 2016 at 6:11 PM

No.. she never given up on the idea, she just can't say it out loud.

Having 25 years being taught about modernization, about human right and equally right it won't be disappear easily, it will become your moral compass, your conscience

All of you demand Soo to be 21st century person, but when she did, when she against on injustice, you all still bashing at her, this is a value of being 21st century, you stand on justice, human right and equally right

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junah

October 26, 2016 at 6:56 PM

THIS!

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Piggie

October 26, 2016 at 8:34 PM

I loved this drama. Hence thus far I had overlooked its flaws, but this really had me floored!

At this point though, I really wondered if the script-writer is trying to insult our intelligence.

CR's punishment doesn't even befit the seriousness of the crimes she's committed & yet our leading lady conveniently forgot to consider the unnecessary deaths of a good king & an innocent prince. WORSE, CR's excuse is "Love". HUH?

Beaten like a dog versus ... slow, painful death of a good king AND forcing the man you love to kill his half-sibling / your childhood friend. And that's HS's excuse for leaving??!!??!!

*******
Previews are deceiving so I hope the script-writer won't insult us again by making Wook-Su's marriage engagement as the ONLY reason for WS's fury.

HS's warning to Wook ("Beware of the 4th prince") will add BETRAYAL to Jealousy, thus makes it more plausible as to why WS will tell HS: "I never want to see you again!" Unlike the 4th prince in C-BBJX, WS's ambition for the throne is more explicit -- he doesn't want it -- so the betrayal will be more heartfelt.

If HS's caution is left out in Ep-19, I so want to consider putting the script-writer on a hit list. (Just kidding)

*******

I don't really agree that we need more episodes to better explain the story. I also acknowledge that it's a tough job to join two countries' disparate histories to match the original story & characters.

The love between MLSHR's OTP is more touching to me & actually quite out of character for me to root for a happy ending. With C-BBJX ... I didn't care that RX dies with regret, leaving YZ devastated.

It's just how lame certain plots are (and the excessive close-ups), that makes me first angry, then sense of regret, simply because I really love the show.

My final thought is:

This show could have become a great classic.

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transient

October 27, 2016 at 12:46 AM

Su did not question the fact that CR was being punished for her crime, but how the punishment was delivered. As someone from the 21st century, seeing someone being beaten to death (god knows how long they had to beat her up until she died and how much she she was in before she died) is too much gore. I think Su wouldn't have complained if CR was exiled or imprisoned for life, but slow torturing is a big no-no.

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transient

October 27, 2016 at 12:47 AM

I meant to say:
How much pain she was in

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133 Johan

October 26, 2016 at 7:44 PM

Something is bugging me with the sudden change of Hae So's feeling & reactions in this episode.
I haven' t even finish reading ideas here & I am already out of crackers to munch.?
I am just wondering what if all this sudden change of her emotions towards So is actually her way of protecting him from more hurt.
Well, it was shown that she won't live that long & her condition is not that well & maybe in addition to that she can't bear a child.
What if it turned out that she's doing an ultimate sacrifice of pretending not to care so Wang So can have his own kingly life?
I remembered seeing her in deep thoughts before Baek ah approached her.
What if she intentionally back out since Jimong told her upfront that she can't protect the King due to her condition and status?
What if all of these were part of her selfless sacrifice to protect Wang So in the future?

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JoseMiro

October 26, 2016 at 8:00 PM

Never thought it that way... but it's possible.. knowing that how much WS will crushed when Soo dying in front of his eyes, that's why she choose to dying alone by leaving the palace .. leaving him anger is better than leaving him crumbled

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darkheart

October 27, 2016 at 2:24 AM

I was thinking about this too...

1. She knows she doesn't have long to live so she'd rather leave and die alone - but I think it's not just this.

2. More importantly, I think she knows that she is a liability to WS. She is the chink in his armour and people will try to use her to hurt WS because of WS's feelings for her. She makes WS vulnerable.

I think if it were just the first reason, she may not have left and would have stayed on and made the most of whatever little time she had with WS. Leaving WS in this manner (making WS think that she had somehow betrayed him with Wook) is her way of protecting him as he would not have this soft vulnerable spot anymore

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Hanajj

October 27, 2016 at 5:09 AM

Knowing her as a person who will sacrifice for her loved ones I think that might be her other motive because her death might affect Wang so so much so leaving him angry and hating her is the best thing for him

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134 Prita

October 26, 2016 at 7:53 PM

The writer is awfull. I mean, does Su charachter really represent 21st woman? And she only judge So based on history that she learned from school. I hate this situation -___-

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junah

October 26, 2016 at 8:16 PM

I doubt 21st women will following man around just solely in the name of love, feeling okay of being mere concubine, and just agree whatever his man think/decide. Su has principle, either it is fully understood or not. and she put an action to it.

In eps 17, she stayed because she did trust So will be anything but history told. in eps 18, So is exactly what history told.

I am sorry, but screw the palace. Su is not gonna be another Lady Oh. if wanting freedom doesn't represent 21st woman, i don't know what is.

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JoseMiro

October 26, 2016 at 8:35 PM

Soo fate will different from Lady Oh, Lady Oh didn't have the will to leave the king and the king won't let Lady Oh leave the palace.

But Soo has her exit card when she want to get out, though it will be also hurt her badly, though she doesn't know that the card will be through marriage,

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Piggie

October 26, 2016 at 8:45 PM

Either in Dubai or Saudi Arabia, wives need to obtain permission from husbands to buy stuffs (e.g. refrigerator, TV, etc.) Not very 21st century right? Let alone the 900s, the period this story is based on...

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transient

October 27, 2016 at 12:58 AM

I think women in some countries in the middle east can't even leave home unaccompanied, let alone driving. I think they are only recently given the rights to vote.

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transient

October 27, 2016 at 12:54 AM

I doubt 21st women will following man around just solely in the name of love, feeling okay of being mere concubine, and just agree whatever his man think/decide.

I disagree. There many examples where women behave as such in our current society. Submissiveness in women is still too prevalent in the world.

Secondly, Su was not a historian either and she might have slept through her history class in school. Not everyone studies diligently in school :D . So we can excuse her for being average and had to stumble her way in Goryeo. I bet now she regretted not studying diligently when she was in school. She could've been another Jang OK Jung if she is fully versed in history :D

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135 Yellowdog

October 26, 2016 at 9:31 PM

That's it this episode just did it, I'm dropping this drama at ep 18. I've never dropped a drama with 2 more episodes to go but yeah, this will be the first. I'll still continue to read the recaps here though :-p
It's just such a frustrating drama to watch, so much potential wasted. Loved LJK here thou.

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136 YY

October 26, 2016 at 10:08 PM

The part where the queen touched So's face in the final moments before she died was a powerful scene.

The sentimental me said, how touching, finally! A final caress right before she dies to show him she loves him, forgives him and that she regrets never having shown him any affection before.

For about a second, I deluded myself into thinking that. Because I wanted to believe so badly it was so.

But the realist in me sees the scene for what it really is. That was no loving mother's caress, or tender final gesture of reconciliation between mother and son. It was more like a clawing; her fingers were bunched up into a weak attempt at a fist, because she had no strength to claw at his face. She was clawing at his scar, the traces of it clearly seen beneath the makeup. She saw the scar in her final moments, she burnt with hate and rage at the sight, and that gesture, that wordless, macabre, impotent pawing at the scar, was horrific to me in its raw futile rage, she was screaming wordlessly, the hated words she has been saying to him his whole life: "You monster. You hide your scar. But I see it. You cannot hide it from me. I know you for what you are. You are a monster. You have always been a monster. You will always be a monster. I hate you to the core. I will go to the grave hating you to the core. And there is nothing you can do about it."

That was why he lashed out at Su when she stretched out her hand to comfort him on that same cheek. He recoiled, because he remembered that final gesture of hate from his mother, and he was in agony. It wasn't that he couldn't bear her to touch the same part of his face where his mother's hand had lingered, that he couldn't bear to share that part of his face with her; it was because that part of his face was burning with the memory of the final legacy: the chilling death-claw of hate from his mother, the final gesture of defiance from a woman who refused to be cowed into loving a son she had never loved.

She died triumphant in the knowledge that he knew how much she hated him, she had used her last remnants of strength to show him how much she hated him. She won in the end, despite all his attempts at forcing her to acknowledge only him, "that you will only see me, mother", she showed him that even if she only saw him in the end, her eyes were filled with hate.

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Seltzerwater

October 26, 2016 at 10:46 PM

Damn that was dark. But I feel like your truth is pretty dead on.

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pineapplegongzhu

October 27, 2016 at 4:30 AM

Agreed, her last touch was hateful towards Wang So.

The only explanation I can give as to why she seemed to hate him so unreasonably is because, as most people have observed, he is the son who is most like her.

Like a mirror, Wang So reflects what Queen SMSS really is: a monster herself. His scar is a constant reminder that she is ugly. He doesn't make her "shine" (her words, from episode 4), he shows her that underneath all of her pretty dresses, power, and honor (as a mother of sons).....she is unloved. She loved the king, but he never loved her back. The king loved Lady Oh.

It is the same with Wang So. He loved her, but she never loved him back. He reflects back onto her her own pain, her own unfulfilled longings to be loved.

If anything, I think the addition of his scar might indicate to Queen SMSS that she herself is unlovely and therefore unloveable. She is rejected, so she might wonder "Is it me? Am I ugly? Am I unacceptable?" And the scar says "Yes, you are unacceptable." And then she becomes a power-hungry monster.....just like Wang So will be as Gwangjong.

So tragic.

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Jamie Opso

October 27, 2016 at 9:00 PM

This drama is taking us all to a very dark, very bleak place.

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StarryNight

October 27, 2016 at 4:47 AM

Yes, I agree. This is exactly what I was thinking when watching the episode. Well stated!

I feel terrible for So. Throughout the series, you just knew no matter what he did in his life, his mother's feelings for him were not going to change.

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Barbrey

October 27, 2016 at 9:48 AM

I read this scene the same way. I was really surprised that some viewers thought there was any kind of softening in that relationship. To me, this was raw hate from her to him, and a mixture of hate and yearning from him to her. Well expressed by you!

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Maui

October 27, 2016 at 11:10 AM

I felt like the claw of death could be his mother desperately trying to claw the scar away too...it was that scar that kept her away from So, and her and So trapped in this downward spiral they could never exit....the scar represented the start of everything that had gone wrong between them....I can only imagine that she did not hate So from the moment he was born, so the hate/guilt started at some point and the scar probably represented that breaking point...It might be that that is what So interpreted too...he kept saying to her in the chamber when they meet after he kills the monks...it's this dam scar isn't it?....I think So and Queen S where really similar personality wise and So knew they shared those similarities in character, he resembled his mother more than his father...I think he continued to comeback to her because he understood her feelings of guilt/disgust....I always wondered what So's early memories of his mother where....having maybe experienced even one loving memory from her before the scar (sitting in her lap for stories, or maybe even a hug or kiss from her before the scar....would help us gain so much more understanding of why he never gave up trying to gain back her love....it's also more tragic since if he never received love , he wouldn't have maybe fought so hard to gain it back...but receiving it and the loosing it....now he knew what that love felt like and it was in his mind the scar that changed everything...It also explains maybe why he wasn't ready for Su's touch so soon after finally having his mother touch the scar and acknowledge it's presence for the first time....it most have represented that she finally acknowledged the scar...as sad as that is, he might have not wanted to loose the memory of that...

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137 mpa_555

October 26, 2016 at 10:16 PM

The reason why so punishes chaeryung so harshly is b/c he thought he was doing so to protect haesu. According to the C-version, The reason why haesu decides she needs to leave is because she realizes that from now on, ppl will continue to try to harm her because it will get to wang so. And everytime people do that, So will kill that person. So as long as she is near So, She is the reason why So kills. That's why she leaves.

spoiler!!!
-

but hae su dies. if this version will be true to the c-version. Haesu and wang so will stay separated, and haesu dies, alone, in the care of 14th prince

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138 Muunamii

October 26, 2016 at 11:31 PM

I noticed that HS and WS lacked "communication" throughout the whole episode.
WS should tell HS before taking action (Killing CR and the reason why he did not let Jung see his dying mother) Just like how he tell HS why he want to be King.

If WS really cares for HS, he should consider HS's health especially upon hearing from the doctor that she is ill.
Seeing the preview, (the scene where he told HS that he won't see her again) it's as if he doesn't care about HS's condition. Yes, he's angry, frustrated and feeling betrayed. HS's feeling is not different. omo.. give back the WS who is always there for her, who listens and understand her.
Throne and power changes people indeed.

ugh. I know we're going to get a sad ending but I'm still hoping that K-version ending will be a little better than the C-version.

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139 banini

October 27, 2016 at 1:54 AM

In my attempt to understand HS's decision to leave, I remember how the show often mention the concept of change.

In his daughter's death scene, daddy Park mentioned how Eun was SD's first love, that no matter how he desuaded her against him she still chose to marry Eun and would probably choose him still even if she knew she would end up dying that way with him.

Then came CR. CR apparently loved Won for a long time and loved him enough to commit murder for him. In her letter she said she didn't reget doing it, and if I remember right, someone here mentioned her saying she could do it again for him.

Somehow these demonstrate how not changing even in the face of bad circumstance can lead to tragedy. She knew So is somehow changing back to the fierce Wang So even with her around. She thought she could keep him in check but couldn't. Thus, maybe before their circumstances lead them to greater tragedy she decided to walk away. Also, she told Yeon Hwa before that she would not leave So as long as he doesn't change, but now that he is changing then it's time to leave his side.

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140 OrangPagi

October 27, 2016 at 2:35 AM

Im still not understand why queen s hate wang so, he is her son

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Hanajj

October 27, 2016 at 5:35 AM

Queen yoo's hatred of her son might be because
1. She did told him that a mother only loves a son who makes her shine/ more powerful

2. He's like her a lot. Both are exremists , possessive, ruthless and have bad tempers.

3.he reminds her about the time when her husband get married again and she feels very unloved since it's just after her second son died

4.she feels guilty of ruining her son's life by scarring him but didn't want to admit to her mistakes as this would ruin her reputation as a queen. The guilt turns to hatred

5.she's just a pure evil queen and I can see wang so is becoming more like her...its in the gene. ?

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141 StarryNight

October 27, 2016 at 5:01 AM

Ok, relatively new poster here. Unfortunately I jumped on the bandwagon rather late, only within the last few episodes. Loving all the recaps and comments. Finally, people to talk about this series with! LOL.

Any flaws aside, I'm enjoying it for what it is, though I wish producers had slated more episodes to tell the story better because parts were definitely rushed.

Anyway, I tried watching the C-drama and couldn't get into it. Maybe I'll have to give it another try after MLSHR is finished. I do know how it ends though, and agree that we're probably heading down a similar path here as well. I know they also had a second season, that people are split about in terms of liking it.

I do want to throw out a crazy possibility (and maybe I'm reaching, but it's just a fun thought). I know in the C-drama, HS's health factors were different and in MLSHR it seems she's got heart trouble from all the stress she's gone through. I seriously doubt we're getting a second season of the current series, but wouldn't it be a kicker if the chest pains HS has been getting is because someone's pulled her from the lake in her time and is doing CPR/chest compressions on her (and she's feeling it in the past)? Perhaps she'll die in the past from a heart attack, and open her eyes in her time to see current day's WS hanging over her, having pulled her from the water or something. Maybe that would give some people the ending they wanted. :P

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straws

October 27, 2016 at 5:35 AM

Yeah, I still remember When general Park told So no matter how many times you reborn, you will need to pay for your deed. Maybe So will be a doctor in 21st century and saving lives as doctor for taking lives in the past.

But I will be mad if the story just ended So's reincarnation saves Ha Jin after she drowned??. They must fall in love and be together to make up for their past lives!!! I don't really care if Wang So never remeber his past life because it's too awful.

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142 gavotte

October 27, 2016 at 5:09 AM

Thanks heads for the recap! <3

Am I the only one that clenched my teeth for more than half of this episode? Seriously, writer, why the inconsistency of Haesoo's trust to So? Why the kings' lame crazy curse again and again?

I did watch some funny clips for a while after watching this episode because my neck became too tense. :')

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143 Ren

October 27, 2016 at 5:56 AM

"You threw me away today, Mother. But I will not leave you.

It must be devastating to continue to love someone after they have completely abandoned you and treated you with derision. From an objective perspective, Wang So should have ceased considering the Queen his mother long ago, he is no son to her and they've stood on opposing warring sides for years now. Unfortunately our emotions are out of our control and cannot be bended by will. And for some reason all the Queen's sons have this weird unyielding love for her.

In the Queen's dying hours, So's words are shrouded in half-truths. I do believe that despite the circumstances he was fond of her, enough so to build a great temple in her memory. It is easier to rationalise his plans to himself as purely for revenge because this would make sense; it wouldn't make him the pathetic boy who still yearned for the love of his mother. Just as it's easier to interpret and tell Su that his mother reached to caress him in her last breathe. These are all lies, just like the rumours that So will spread and the temple he will build. But these lies are easier to accept and swallow than the cold hard truth. The Queen despised him and never accepted him, she was simply waiting out for Jung. Yet even with all this So loved her.

It will make Su's decision to leave with Jung all the harder, because in So's minds there are explicit sides; and his mother always chose Jung.

TL;DR: Oedipus complexes ruin everything.

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144 Seltzerwater

October 27, 2016 at 6:14 AM

The more I think about the proposal scene the more I realized that's the moment that Hae Su and Wang So are over.

There's much more emotional abuse they have to heap on each other before they break apart, but this is the decision point. They've been pushed to the limit in what they were able to do to maintain their love for each other, but ultimately, Hae Su's decision to not marry Wang So was inevitable because of the many political reasons that YH and Jimong laid out for Hae Su. That Wang So was able to still say that he loves her and wants to marry her isn't empty words, but ultimately, he was in no position to do so if he wanted to stay on the throne and if he wanted to stay alive. It was completely gutting to me when Hae Su says "I'll be okay. I"m really fine." because you can see that she's the opposite of okay and the opposite of fine. This is classic So/Su couple talk, to say the opposite of what they mean (especially as a reflection of their jail cell conversation). That's why Wang So had to go all out to say:

"You are mine. I'll never let you go. You are my only queen."

The irony of those statements is of course:

1) She is not his (she cannot marry him)

2) He will have to let her go (death)

3) And she is not his only queen (b/c Queen Daemok is).

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pineapplegongzhu

October 27, 2016 at 4:50 PM

Agreed that the proposal scene signals the real slide down.

But, given what you've said, then, are you arguing that this isn't an epic love that will span time, space, myth, and history?

If it is truly over between them, then the story must be complete tragedy: how love dies in the hostile world of politics. Is this the message of the drama?

Because, I would argue, while it will end tragically in Goryeo, the show keeps pushing the idea (even from the first solar ellipse) that Wang So and Ha Jin are tied to one another.

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Seltzerwater

October 27, 2016 at 11:51 PM

No, I think it is an epic love that is defied by circumstances in Goryeo. I buy your theory that they are eternally tied together by fate. That's why in HS's voice over in the trailer she says "how nice would it have been to meet in another time in another place.

However, the feasibility of their love IN GORYEO is completely gone. Once Hae Su pronounced Wang So king, she sets in motion the wheels that would destroy the possibilities of them being together.

I believe that no one loves each other more than Wang So and Hae Su, which is why I keep watching. But I just love being gutted by all the very REAL things that keep them apart. They were able to overcome so much together. But once Wang So became King, all was lost because WS is larger than a man who passionately loves HS, he's now a man who has to serve his nation.

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Maui

October 28, 2016 at 9:04 AM

I see this arc in the story too...despite everything, impossible odds, and suffering....the love survives.....

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Pei

October 27, 2016 at 8:27 PM

Agreed. The second time I watch this a day after international broadcast & chaotic live comment in google group chat, I'm weeping & sobbing from the back hug scene & that sweet cheek kiss. That would be their last happy moment, thunder storm ahead. Coming fast and destructive!

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145 Lemon Meringue

October 27, 2016 at 6:39 AM

I should've seen it coming when that damned horse died in that first ep.

Why did I watch this show live!?! :'(

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146 Britney

October 27, 2016 at 6:55 AM

LJK's acting is truly phenomenal. I have so much respect for him as an actor, he captivates and mesmerises in every scene where he appears. If not for him this drama would have sank long ago.

Please show love for him and vote -- this poll matters, the winning artists will go onstage and receive an award.

http://www.asiaartistawards.com/vote/result_2/6/#v2nd

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147 Lia

October 27, 2016 at 8:21 AM

[Continued from 2.5.2.2.3]

I forgot to add to 'save beheading, if you consider that more merciful than other forms of death of that time', just that!

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148 Maui

October 27, 2016 at 10:40 AM

On Gwangjongs reign...The early Goryeo records were burned and reconstructed later on. The records we have now were compiled 500 years later from the events of MLSHR. So you have to take things with a grain of salt.

Then, for seven years, he just goes about his business without much fuss, but slowly but surely, starts to introduce changes in the court to cut off the powers of the clans. For example, he suggested freeing some slaves so that they could become tax-paying citizens while also no longer being part of the private army of the clans. Queen Daemok (the Hwangbo princess, named Yeon Hwa in MLSHR) opposed this because she was more interested in protecting the privileges of her mother's clan.

Gwangjong also introduced a national exam for appointing court officials instead of the aristocrats deciding things by their connections. He openly embraced foreigners in his court, too, as long as they were talented enough. He also introduced a dress code that defined. You can imagine that Gwangjong's decisions were not popular with the powerful clans. When they started to raise their voices against him, he killed many of them. Somebody lamented that out of the 3,000 people that had supported Taejo found Goryeo, there were only 40 some left towards the end of Gwangjong's rule.

The tragedy of Gwangjong is that his own son didn't understand his father's vision in strengthening the power of the throne and reversed many of his work later on. Towards the end of his life, Gwangjong became suspicious of his own son and probably would have killed him if he had another heir. It is also speculated that Queen Daemok died before Gwangjong, but it is not clear how. At any rate, we can at least tell that they were not a happy family as Gwangjong fought a lonely war to make Goryeo a strong monarchy when his own wife and son worked against him. (Sorry, i quote only some part to shorten the post.)

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gavotte

October 27, 2016 at 5:44 PM

Wow! Thank you for this, Maui.
This really sounds like a very possible continuation of MLSHR.

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Nae

October 27, 2016 at 7:26 PM

Even though the drama was from 2009 The Iron Empress/Empress Cheonchu incorporates the aftermath of Gwangjong's reign in the story. There are some flashbacks of Gwangjong's reign as well.

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Nae

October 27, 2016 at 7:20 PM

In The Iron Empress/Empress Cheonchu it had a flashback of Gwangjong who was trying to harm his son but instead accidentally killed Queen Daemok. That traumatized future King Gyeongjong and he even hated his Grandmother Queen Hwangbo blaming her for his mother's death.

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149 mira

October 27, 2016 at 11:00 AM

Maybe Su would have settled with a less brutal death for Chae-Ruyng. It's probably a double blow for her. The feeling of betrayal and the witnessing a kind of brutality she is not used to seeing. It only makes sense if takes sometimes before she can calm down after this incident.

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150 Lin_K

October 27, 2016 at 11:59 AM

On a completely different note, is Six Flying Dragons a good drama? I love both YAI and KMM and have been wanting to watch it. I read some recaps here and there and some episode reviews didn't look that good; so I held back as it's a long drama. Did it drag a lot? Did it end good? Was it very tragic with a lot of good people dying?

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Ren

October 27, 2016 at 12:47 PM

Six Flying Dragons is amazing, the love line left me a bit sad, but that wasn't what the drama was about.

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Nae

October 27, 2016 at 7:29 PM

Yes Six Flying Dragons is good. I like and disliked Yi Bang Won at the same time.

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Barbrey

October 27, 2016 at 7:59 PM

I am loving it, Lin_K! I'm binging it right now. On Episode 14. I found the first few episodes full and interesting but didn't think I'd get hooked. Almost gave it up after two episodes - I'm really not normally into sageuks. But this so far is more of an adventure and con game with quite a bit of romance in it though it is not the main genre. Strong women, a complex hero, lots of different themes to think about, fab villains, and seeing the characters out-manoeuver each other is nothing short of thrilling at times. It's also a fully realized production so you won't have to struggle with interpreting it because of bad editing, raw talent or inconsistent direction. I'm expecting a dip into a slower tempo soon, but so far it's just brilliant.

The King from Moon Lovers is in this too - like the actor even more in SFD as his role is larger.

Anyway, highly recommended.