Moon Lovers: Scarlet Heart Ryeo: Episode 16

1,128 October 18, 2016

by HeadsNo2

There’s only one episode this week due to a pre-emption yesterday, but it certainly is an eventful one. Su has to come to terms with her trust issues this hour, despite some of her visions of the future (in the past) coming true. But the question remains: Is the future she saw one that’s already taken her into account, or is it all just inevitable anyway?

EPISODE 16 RECAP

King Jeongjong looks on as Soon-deok valiantly fights to protect her husband, though tenth prince Eun steps in when Soon-deok is wounded. He asks his brother to spare them, but with one look from the king to one of the soldiers, Soon-deok is cut down in an attempt to spare Eun.

Eun crawls over to her with tears in his eyes, and cradles her face as he tells her that everything’s going to be all right. But she passes on, leaving Eun crying and helpless.

It’s then that King Jeongjong takes his bow and fires an arrow straight into Eun. Just before he can fire the other, So jumps into the fight to protect his brother as fourteenth prince Jung and Su arrive to see the scene before them rapidly deteriorate. So tries to fight off the soldiers, but that doesn’t stop Jeongjong from shooting an arrow into Eun’s chest.

So catches Eun before he can fall, and Eun, gasping for air, reminds his older brother of the birthday where So said he’d grant him any gift he wanted. Motioning to Soon-deok, Eun says that he can’t let her go alone, and asks one, final gift of his brother: He wants So to kill him so he can be with his wife, rather than the cruel Jeongjong.

With tears in his own eyes, So slowly raises his sword and cuts Eun down even as Su whispers, “No, you can’t.” It’s the same as it was in her vision, except that So watches in horror as a dying Eun reaches out toward his wife before he joins her in the afterlife.

Jung runs to his brother, urging him to wake up as So struggles even harder to contain his emotions. He breaks and begins to laugh incredulously instead, which fulfills the final part of the vision Su had—except that what she had considered to be victorious laughter is instead something much closer to a sob.

She crumples to the floor in shock as So looks toward her, but he leaves without saying a word. Su flashes back to all her fond memories with Eun as she sits, too shocked to even cry.

Grand General Park has to only look at So’s bloody sword before he goes running to the courtyard to find his precious daughter and son-in-law dead. He cradles the limp form of his daughter as Su continues to look blank, and says with a rueful smile that Soon-deok was the one who wanted to marry Eun, because he was her first love.

He was against it, General Park adds, because he knew this would happen. “Was my Soon-deok very adored by the prince?” he asks. “Very much,” a shell-shocked Su finally replies. “Very, very much. They loved each other.” The general seems soothed by this somewhat, though he cries pitifully as he holds his dead daughter in his arms.

“I’ll kill him,” Jung says, breaking the emotional moment. “I’ll kill Wang So.” Wait—you’re blaming him and not Jeongjong? Su grabs onto his robes and tells him not to do it, because that’s what Eun asked So to do. Jung can only drop his sword and cry out in frustration.

Outside the palace, a still-bloody So tells Astronomer Choi that he thinks he should become the rabid dog-wolf everyone once accused him of being—the king who ends lives, bites his master’s hand, and takes over his master’s house.

As he walks away, he thinks to himself, “I, Wang So, will become King of Goryeo.”

When King Jeongjong relays the news of Eun and Soon-deok’s deaths to Wook, Wook’s hands tighten ever so slightly even as his face remains neutral. Well, at least he still feels something.

That’s when Jeongjong decides to announce his plans to move the capital from Kaesong to Seokyeong, which will make his uncle, Wang Shik-ryeom, happy.

An emotional Baek-ah tells So that they won’t be allowed to mourn for Eun because he was labeled as a traitor, and though he and his wife’s body were thrown outside the palace gates to rot, they were able to give them a secret burial.

So tells Baek-ah about how Eun asked for one last gift from him, and Baek-ah completely understands why So did what he did—he knows that Eun would be thankful. Astronomer Choi interrupts to give So a letter from Su he just found, where she told him that Eun was hiding out at Damiwon.

So finds Su by the river, and despite her running up to him with hope in her eyes, he gives her a hard look. “I must look like a monster in your eyes. I killed Eun.” While Su claims she understands, So asks her why she hid Eun’s secret from him—was she that worried that he would kill Eun if he knew?

Su admits that she was only worried about Eun, and wanted only for he and his wife to escape together safely. “I didn’t realize we could end up hurting each other until it was too late. That was why I left that letter. I trusted you. I know it took some time, but I truly trusted you, enough that I would trust you in any situation,” she adds tearfully.

“But… now I no longer feel that way,” So says. He adds that he won’t be able to disassociate her from what he had to do because she didn’t trust him: “Eun died because of you. I will remember how I had to kill him.” Even when he had to become the king’s dog to save her, his feelings didn’t change. But now, he says coldly, they have.

“Let’s stop,” he says, turning away. But when Su calls him a liar, So gives her a small smile as he amends that they promised never to lie to each other. Ouch.

When So’s alone, however, we see him falter as tears spring to his eyes. Oh, you did lie! And broke your promise! Tsk.

So is rewarded with land by King Jeongjong for his help in executing the traitors, and is sent to see to the construction of new fortresses in the soon-to-be capital of Seokyeong. So commits himself to the royal command in a dead voice.

Jung calls his older brother out for his crimes while simultaneously announcing his plans to travel along the borders to help secure them. King Jeongjong warns him to stay away from the front lines for their mother’s sake, but Jung refuses to acquiesce, claiming that he lived like a coward for too long.

But before he leaves, he drops the two arrow stems they broke off Eun’s body in front of the king as a reminder. As if on cue, Jeongjong hears Eun’s voice as he pleaded for his and his wife’s lives. Fearful now, the king orders that sacrificial food be left for the dead—though he can’t specifically make an altar for Eun and Soon-deok, he might be hoping to calm their ghosts.

Grand General Park sarcastically wishes So prosperity in his new endeavors, especially considering that he gained land and wealth for hunting down and killing his daughter and son-in-law.

However, a flashback reveals that So, Baek-ah, and Astronomer Choi went to see the general, who already knew of So’s desire to become king. General Park also knew that So was born beneath the star of a king, and King Taejo knew it too, which is why he sent So to him to learn martial arts.

So claimed to not believe in such things, but despite that, he fully intended to become king, even if he had to kill for it. General Park reminded him that King Taejo once said that to become king, one had to throw everything else away, so General Park planned to wait and see what So would be willing to give up for the throne.

Cut to Su, the sacrifice So had to make, as Baek-ah tells her that So’s left for Seokyeong and won’t be returning for a long while. She runs out with the hope of catching him before he’s gone, but when she doesn’t, she only says into the air: “I will wait for you.”

And wait she does, as seasons come and go around her. It’s been two years, and Chae-ryung comes with exciting news that someone Su really wants to see has come to the palace.

Su runs to greet the visitor, and barely hides her disappointment when it turns out to be Jung. She manages a small smile as she greets him for the first time in two years, with Jung looking a bit more mature (and now a general) from years spent protecting the borders.

Jung admits that he paid a visit to Eun and Soon-deok’s graves, and that he was worried that Su would’ve left the palace before he returned. He thought she would’ve gotten married by now, but Su says that she plans to work until she retires, and only then will she travel the world.

Baek-ah and Woo-hee get to greet the recently returned Jung, though it’s Jung and Woo-hee’s first meeting. Su introduces her as the highest ranked lady of the gyobang, and Jung recognizes her as the former gisaeng. He says this in order to insult Baek-ah, who he claims keeps bad company—So is another example.

He also accuses Baek-ah of sending a spy to keep an eye on the troops, but it’s only when Jung’s gone that Baek-ah and Woo-hee smile over how “cute” Jung is. And how quick, too—Baek-ah did send a spy, but only because he wanted to know how his brother was doing.

Su’s face loses its smile when Baek-ah asks which room So’s staying in, because he assumed that So was also here. Su hasn’t heard such a thing, but is clearly hopeful/worried.

With enormous dark circles under his eyes, King Jeongjong rings bells and gongs to ward away spirits at a temple, the altar of which is riddled with protective talismans. His concerned mother walks in to ask what he’s decided to do about Jung, and struggles to talk over the loud noises the clearly mad king is making.

Queen Sinmyeongsunseong finally grasps her son’s hands in order to quiet the noise, as she urges Jeongjong to make Jung the crown prince. Jeongjong looks distant as he asks his mother what he is to her—why is he pressuring her to pick a crown prince when he’s not dying anytime soon?

“Does Jung want the throne?” he suddenly asks, causing the queen to slacken her grip. Just then, So comes to give his greetings, and King Jeongjong just laughs that if his mother is so afraid, he’ll just make So the crown prince.

Su and Wook run into each other in the palace, but their encounter is formal and silent. Wook continues on to meet with the king, who’s acting slightly less mad as he berates So for the lack of progress with the fortress in Seokyeong.

So claims that it’s due to a lack of manpower and supplies, but the king chucks a cup at him before threateningly grabbing a nearby Su by the wrist. He tells So to do whatever it takes to get it done as he grabs Su’s wrist ever tighter, and before Jung can intervene, Wook grabs him to stop him.

It’s not until So drops to his knees to apologize for his error that the king slackens his grip, helped in part by Wook suggesting that they discuss this further in private.

Chae-ryung finds Su rewriting the same poem Su once gave her (“Walking until the water’s edge, I sit and watch as clouds rise up and appear”), recognizing the same characters despite her illiteracy.

She knows Su can’t sleep and suggests she go for a walk, and when she does, she finds So staggering at the spot where she’d go to wait these past two years. She chastises him for not coming to visit once, which he doesn’t deny. He also claims that he just came to this place because he was lost.

As he walks away, Su grabs him into a backhug. While he claimed to have forgotten everything, she says she hasn’t, and tearfully asks him to bear with her embrace just for now. Since he left on his own, she claims she has a right to do this much.

So hesitates, but stops himself from covering her hands with his own. She hesitantly asks if he still hates her, which is when he wrenches her hands off him and walks away. Su can only cry in his wake.

Woo-hee gives a report to the king about So’s false progress on the fortress in Seokyeong, claiming that he’s deliberately making it so that the fortress can’t be built. Though the king’s uncle Wang Shik-ryeom was supposed to oversee the construction, Woo-hee claims that he isn’t doing his job because he’s ill.

King Jeongjong wonders irately if this is all a ploy on So’s part for the throne, but Woo-hee has another concern: “Why have you broken your promise?” Since the king has mandated that those who can’t pay their taxes will be sold into slavery, the people of Later Baekje are being forced to work to death on the fortress.

“What meaning is there for me to be your eyes and ears, Your Majesty?” she asks, adding that the deal they made is no longer beneficial to her. The king calls her “Princess” as he threatens to tell Baek-ah about their little arrangement.

So flashes back to his fond memories with Su, smiling. He then thinks about how she asked if he still hated her as his smile fades—but just then, he turns around to find Su right behind him.

Apparently neither of them see King Jeongjong, ninth prince Won, and an entire party of attendants on the pavilion just feet away, watching them. Won uses this as evidence that Jeongjong can’t trust So, despite Jeongjong being sure that the two had no more feelings for each other. He even checked to make sure they never sent letters to each other during So’s absence.

In order to test where So’s loyalties truly lie, the king shoots an arrow at Su. So sees it just in time to grab her out of the way, getting slightly grazed by the flying arrow in the process.

He gets up immediately when the king and Won come down, with Won making it a point to notice that the two of them are closer than they appear. So just claims that it would’ve looked bad for the king to kill a court lady, though he’s probably not fooling anyone anymore.

Su takes the arrow that almost killed her back to her quarters, where she’s called Woo-hee to deliver a message to Baek-ah. We hear his response in voiceover as Su goes to the house where So is recovering, as Baek-ah mentioned that the gash on his arm got worse while he was traveling back to Seokyeong.

She finds So near the palace, with the arrow wound on his arm looking red and angry. He only catches half-unconscious and feverish glimpses of her as she tends to it, while she reaches out a tentative hand to trace the numerous other scars littering his body.

When he wakes, he finds Su sleeping across the room and gets up to kneel closer to her. Reaching out a hand, he moves as if to cup her face, only to be interrupted when Su wakes up.

Caught, he simply asks why she’s here. She said she asked Baek-ah for a favor so she could come ask him one question: “You still haven’t forgotten me, have you? You said you no longer liked me. You were lying, weren’t you?”

But that’s not the question she came here to ask, as she tearfully reminds him that she risked her life to leave the palace so she could be here. “In the past two years, there was not a day when I wasn’t waiting for you. I wanted to go back to that time. I wished for it again and again. So I wanted to tell you… that I trust you.”

She says she’ll ask him once more, and wants an honest answer from him: “Do you still love me?” There’s a long pause before So answers by turning around to kiss her.

He pulls back to see her crying, and wipes away one of her tears with his thumb. He swoops in for another kiss, and Su pulls him in tighter. A nearby candle flickers out, which can only mean one thing…

We return to find the two lovebirds lying in bed, with So stroking Su’s cheek. She wakes from her sleep and smiles at him, and they spent the rest of the night making shadow puppets on the wall. So’s actually pretty darn good at this.

They’re as adorable over breakfast the next morning, with Su hand feeding him bits of protein while smiling. That night, they study the stars together as Su points out constellations, though of course their bliss is interrupted by the arrival of Astronomer Choi.

He’s come with bad news: The king is very ill. Apparently the monk who was tending to the king got hit by lightning (hahahaha, sorry), and the shock of it was too much for the king to bear. We see the king going literally mad as he imagines Eun in his room and outside of it, as well as the ghost of King Hyejong or King Taejo.

Upon finding the king, Wook immediately left to see Wang Shik-ryeom in Seokyeong, which is why Astronomer Choi has come to So. General Park is gathering his forces, so it’s up to So to decide whether he wants to make a grab for the throne.

“Do you want the throne?” Su asks him. “I do,” So admits. Now Su realizes that the throne is the reason he left her, though he tells her that it was because the king was using her against him that he had to make it look like he no longer loved her.

She asks what he’d do if she asked him to give up the throne, and he just smiles at her as he says he’d convince her. Reminding him that he once said he didn’t need the throne as long as they could be together, she’s noticed that he doesn’t say that anymore.

Since they agreed not to lie to each other, So tells her that he came to realize that the world can change if the king changes. “I will not let others keep me on a leash. And if it is a seat where I can put an end to irrational matters, then I surely desire… to become king.”

COMMENTS

I’m at least glad they didn’t drag on the separation storyline for more than one episode (despite years passing in the timeline), though I’m still scratching my head over why it was necessary in the first place. It felt obligatory, like this was just the point in the story where we needed some noble idiocy and forced separation, and even if it was there to just provide some angst, it was so short-lived that by the time I noticed that this was where we were really going, it was over.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ll take the cute romantic moments between Su and So, even if their togetherness kind of negated the reason they had been driven apart. I get that So wanted to fool Jeongjong into thinking that he no longer loved Su so that she wouldn’t be used against him, but what good did that ruse do? It’s not like Jeongjong has a conscience that would’ve kept him from making Su’s life a living hell if he suddenly thought that So didn’t care, and it certainly didn’t stop him from manhandling her in front of So anyway. Or are we supposed to believe that the only thing standing between Su and that arrow was Jeongjong’s intel that they hadn’t sent each other any letters in two years?

Speaking of Jeongjong, I admit to being fatigued by what now feels like a parade of mad kings in this show, especially since the directing seems to have no desire to rein in any of these performances. It’s all just too much, what with Hyejong screaming his head off like a lunatic, and now Jeongjong constantly staring off into the middle distance while he talks crazy.

It’s fine to portray him as being plagued by guilt, even though guilt isn’t an emotion Jeongjong ever even hinted he could feel, but what’s the reasoning behind taking that idea to the absolute extreme? It’s to the point where I feel like they’re using madness as a cop-out to create an easy way to delegitimize whoever’s on the throne without having to create character-driven reasons for it, that way we’re left with only one option to root for. The simplicity can be nice sometimes, but we lose out on the complexity of So having to actually make plans against a worthy foe when that foe imagines dead people in his room at night.

I thought it was interesting that the scenario with Eun played out exactly as it did in Su’s original vision, but the intent behind So’s actions was (potentially?) different. It’s a question I dearly wish the show would explore a bit more, since we had Su looking wide-eyed at all the events happening before her, realizing that they were happening just as she saw them, and then… thinking nothing else about it. Are her visions true glimpses into the future? Is she seeing a future she already had a hand in, and does that mean everything’s predetermined to happen with or without her interference?

But now that she’s seen that So didn’t actually want to kill Eun, I wonder if she’s considered that perhaps the past has already changed, and that So won’t leave a trail of bodies on his way to the throne. I did like that So called her out on not trusting him this episode, and do feel that he was genuinely hurt by that—but I like it more that they’re back to being cute. At least we have a week to enjoy it.

1,128

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51 Pei

October 18, 2016 at 8:09 PM

I watched both editing version and getting frustrated by the international version. T___T
Obviously Yo-Woo Hee convo didn't make the cut and it basically answers what's the deal between them in previous episode, why why why they have to cut this scene?! -__-"
Anyway, highlight in this episode :

1. Eun-Deok death scene, this show always do well in killing characters huh?! Heart wrenching plead (✓), sad sad beautiful OST (✓), blood splatter (✓), sad manic laughter (✓)
Have to admit, this is my 1st ever LJG drama and I don't think I can fall even deeper in love with LJG after this ❤

2. Break up scene, I-don't-see-this-in-international-version!
I like the SBS version editing flow better than the Int. ver. You can see that So is wavering when Soo give the back hug to stop him, but he is firm that the break up is necessary for both sake *deep sigh*

3. So-Soo reunion! Candle light out said "Let's do the deeds." XD

About Jung, mimicking So hair style? It's not working for me ~_~
and Wook.... what can I say about him? He still got something good inside but hence to his action on previous episode, I just can't root for him anymore.

Isn't it a bit ironic how both So and Wook aiming for throne because of Soo? I'm looking forward for the jade bracelet breaking scene, did Soo still keep it after all these (time lap) years? Why?

PS : that darn baseball game! I rant about it a lot on Monday night -___-"

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JoyBells

October 18, 2016 at 10:25 PM

3. Jung's wig need to burn.Asap.

I sort of get how Jung's hate towards Su is so mis-guided. He knows at the core that Su isn't to blame for a lot of things,but prior to Su returning, life was a lot different from him. Not that Su had anything to do with how things changed.But he probably sees that as a point when things started changing. He needs to blame someone for his Mother and Yo going all out Evil, the lost love among the brothers and Su is a convinent excuse.

About the jade bracelet breaking scene in the preview-when did Soo return the jade bracelet to Wook. Did i miss it or did it happen off screen?

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pogo

October 18, 2016 at 10:37 PM

@JoyBells - that's what makes it so tragic, Jung's misguided hatred for So.

I feel like the drama actually developed that storyline well, starting from almost the first one-on-one interaction they had with each other where Jung's first instinct was to rise and greet his hyung, but he was stopped by the queen and Yo. And then Jung's rescue by Wook and So in episode 4 followed by his one-on-one with So at the end which results in him lashing out at So and getting punched for it, but then defending So to his mother when she comes in and starts berating him. I feel like that's their relationship in a nutshell - Jung resenting So because of the way his arrival shook up everything about his family dynamic, but at the same time knowing in his heart that So's not really the one to blame.

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Yoyo

October 18, 2016 at 11:05 PM

Okay, I have to admit, I actually read @pogo's first sentence as: that's what makes it so tragic, Jung's misguided hatred for his wig. ????

I think I mentioned this in one of the responses, but Jung's character development was the one that had the least impact to date. However, his story acts as dark horse because it provides another arc that chimes well with history or whatever version there is, that's why Jung's foreshadowing is the real deal.

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pogo

October 18, 2016 at 11:34 PM

^^^co-signing this. Jung is our dark horse, all right.

JoyBells

October 19, 2016 at 12:55 AM

@pogo
Yup, also without realizing,unlike the other characters Su,Soo and Wook; Jung as a character has been slowly growing in the background over time. When you list out his scenes that way,we see how much he has changed from a mommy's boy who loved street fighting to now where is a jaded seasoned general.

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pogo

October 19, 2016 at 1:33 AM

- it's funny, because the story is TELLING us Jung's gone from mommy's boy to general, but the maturity levels coming off Ji-soo don't seem to match so I'm not really feeling it (compared to, say, Su's changed demeanour/body language after she joined the gyobang/became head of the Damiwon)

The only major change I can sense is Jung's behaviour towards Su, and I think that's fair because it's possibly his most important development.

Ren

October 19, 2016 at 2:09 AM

I agree. It's hard to accept that your mother and brother are orchestrating coups and ordering hits when they've always been perfectly normal and pleasant to you. It's easier to blame So for catalysing the change in Yo and the Queen rather than see that he merely revealed them for the terrible people they were all along which would make everything you knew about your brother and mother to be lie. Besides Jung's been told by the Queen all his life that So is the enemy who's out to destroy them, so he makes a convenient target.

Eun seemed to have been in a similar denial til the very end, thinking that the older brother who he grew up with would actually let him go.

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pogo

October 19, 2016 at 5:11 AM

I think what makes Jung so frustrating is that he's so often one step forward but two steps back when it comes to his family and So. Like he's capable of recognising that his mother was terrible for inviting So to family dinner and then trying to talk murder plots, but he can't go the one step further and see that that's his mother's fault, not So's for being there.

52 Lilium

October 18, 2016 at 8:16 PM

C'mon Heads, it's just 2 two mad kings... Only two!
And they are/were different types of mad.

Some little moments that I just noticed: Eun smiling at Soondeok moments before So killed him, Jung using his coat to cover Eun's corpse T____T

Also, I appreciate how So's motivation to be king is a very just reason. History portrayed him as this ruthless and violent ruler, when 'in fact' he only desired to be king upon realizing that being on the receiving order end would never change the situation. All these killings of innocent people will keep happening so long as the rulers in charge only have eyes for power and their own safety. So wants to be king so that he has the power to stop all this madness, therefore making a peaceful country. And he knows that to reach that spot, it's gonna be a ruthless journey.

And it's just so sad that he had to kill his younger brother, his innocent brother who knew nothing but toys, to realize that there is nobody else but him who is up for the position. That he can no longer play the noble knight, because as powerful as a knight is, in the end he is just a hunting dog..

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pogo

October 18, 2016 at 10:16 PM

yeah, I liked that Jung was right there on the scene - the drama hasn't forgotten that Eun was his favourite brother, and Jung's devastation is clear (and even more tragic that he blames So for it)

October 19, 2016 at 8:09 PM

Oh my reply on your second point got erased somehow :(

October 19, 2016 at 2:54 AM

Yaaasssss!

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kumoiwa

October 19, 2016 at 3:05 AM

We should make this happen!

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Yoyo

October 19, 2016 at 3:17 AM

I agree 100000x

kumoiwa

October 19, 2016 at 4:44 AM

@Yoyo: I started a comment thread for emails to be added to a Google Hangouts group chat down at 85, so if you wanna join in, just leave your email there!

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 6:12 AM

@kumoiwa - I replied to that thread, but my comment got held up in moderation - I suspect others may be, too.

It's skylilies (at) gmail dot com, now I hope this at least gets through.

Yoyo

October 19, 2016 at 6:36 AM

✅ done

kumoiwa

October 19, 2016 at 8:50 AM

@pogo: I've sent you an invitation! @Yoyo I'll add you in once @pogo accepts :)

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 10:03 AM

Accepted!

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 10:04 AM

Also I am super lame because I couldn't work out how to join at first and had to watch a youtube video on how to do it, haha

KumiTokki

October 19, 2016 at 10:47 AM

Yay can I join?

kumoiwa

October 19, 2016 at 10:58 AM

@KumiTokki: sure, just give me your email! Gmail's better because you can use Hangouts off your email page :)

57 JayIO

October 18, 2016 at 8:45 PM

so many plotholes......

ah well good most and acting makes up for it

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58 YY

October 18, 2016 at 8:48 PM

~ The Wicked Deed is Done ~

Silence descends; the wicked deed is done,
Clouds loom in the grimy dullness of the sun,
You lie broken and still next to your loved one,
Your young life snuffed out before it’s even begun.

They came with swords, they did what they had to do,
You knew that, didn’t you, my darling, you understood,
This world was too cruel for you, my baby, my poor Eun
It was never meant for one as sweet, as beautiful as you.

You died a hero, my darling, my baby, my Eun,
Rest in peace, my sweet, my gentle little prince,
Close your eyes, go to sleep, soothe your pain,
Beneath Death’s caress, his soft and loving hand.

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Yoyo

October 18, 2016 at 10:49 PM

From The Eyes of The Throne

'Twas not so long ago, When I held absolute power in my hands
Of gold trinkets and many an army, a proud queen mother merrily danced
Whose seat I stole wasn't warm enough for my brother, So
That fool who thinks no brother can ever be his foe

I sat upon this seat with vengeance, power and richness I seek
All alone in the watchtower, high above the kingdom's peak
In fear of having this power taken away,
I call on my army to hunt those that would betray

My brothers of blood, heed my warning if you may
Remain loyal to me and you might just live to see another day
I see you have doubts, so let me be clear
As you watch in horror, the power you most fear

In my hands, a brother of ours dies
As my arrow pierces through his chest, he cries
For not so long ago, I came with a warning and said
"Do you regret not killing me? For someone will die instead."

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59 dramaDee

October 18, 2016 at 9:19 PM

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pogo

October 18, 2016 at 10:29 PM

awwwwwww

on second thought, I think the fact that I find myself rooting so hard for So/Su as a couple and invested in them, as opposed to just wanting So to succeed in his mission and his love, is probably proof enough that Lee Jun-ki and IU really do have good chemistry.

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Napkiin

October 18, 2016 at 10:34 PM

LJG and IU have such amazing chemistry... I hope they win the best couple awards at end of the year!!

Maui

October 19, 2016 at 5:17 PM

@pogo agree...

banini

October 19, 2016 at 8:00 PM

I saw their chemistry right at the first ep where he swept her off her feet to his horse. It's just that they have very little happy moments together in this drama, oftentimes with Su holding back, that vewers in effect do not see enough sparks. But when they openly laugh and love, its there, that chemistry.

pogo

October 20, 2016 at 9:33 PM

@banini - I felt something myself, but I think I questioned it a little because I thought the Lee Jun-ki/sweeping-her-off-her-feet thing was clouding my judgment - I mean, it's a romantic kind of setup even on its own.

I wish they actually ran with the slightly sexier chemistry for a bit, I remember having serious flutters at the shot of his hand on her back pulling her closer /swoon

Napkiin

October 18, 2016 at 10:35 PM

Exactly!! The last 15 minutes of the episode is super fluffy and cute, I can't even. Let's enjoy the sweet moments while we can

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pogo

October 18, 2016 at 10:39 PM

We have a week! I'm kind of glad we ended at least in a place where they've finally found happiness and are honest with each other even when the questions are hard ones and they don't like the answers.

For now, our couple is good. And I will take what I get with these two.

Ren

October 19, 2016 at 1:38 AM

I re-watched those last 15 minutes so many times. They were so adorable and So looked so happy and content for once. I've committed So-Soo married life to memory so I can pretend that's the ending when the tidal wave of angst inevitably hits.

pogo

October 20, 2016 at 9:35 PM

@Ren - seriously, that's the image I want to take away too - So and Su finally together and happy (I will pretend there's no more after them perched on the stoop looking at the stars).

But I'm a masochist so I'm coming back for pain and tears.

pogo

October 18, 2016 at 10:18 PM

I think it's a touch of embarrassment + Su is unmarried. (to be fair, I can think of quite a few present-day couples who are reluctant to hold hands in public)

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61 drama=life

October 18, 2016 at 9:56 PM

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63 just me

October 18, 2016 at 10:01 PM

I am not watch or read ep 16 yet, i hope it's getting better. I was lost my appatite since the time leaped because it's ridiculous plot. And the actors/ actress not help either. even LJG, the one I watch this show for. It's hard to hide his weakness with miserable plot. Yes, your favorit actor has . He is still human yu no, not an Angel. He is sleeping, eating and has flaws.

Nothing about expression, his weakness is about character. it has higher level than expression in act. his problem is about character detail inconsistent.

Let's take some examples, the scene between Wang So and Haesoo when they meet again for the first time after he started to living in the palace. He was so happy, shining like morning sun. and we did fell for him (who didn't?) But where was the trace of cold and frightening So? or the trace of his abused childhood, his anxious regarded his parents? I can't saw any traces of that in his expression. I know it was happy moment, LJG need to keep So character seen.

Not an easy task for sure. that's why when good expression include micro expression only need good talent (and rich experience of life some times) portraying deep in character need more: high sensibility of human characters, smart brain and absolutely hard work.

Imagine this: you have to dig more to find the right emotions, right expression, right voices for every single scenes you're in. Imagine to do this for 20 or 50 episodes. It's would harder when the character need changed. because the actor need to use different kind of motivations, emotions, and expressions in order to highlighted the character's changed. (I can felt YAI difficulties as he said about his role in 6fd,"when it was filmed, I felt could die." it's wouldn't that hard if he only think about expression despite character. )

But here I can't feel the differences between Wang So before and after the time leaped. only that he was softer. Not the right portray of Wang so character for me. Ofcourse he still give us strong expression of So when he was in strong emotions like fight schene. But he need to portray Wang so character in every scene, not only in strong scene. that's his problem.

After the time leaped, Wang so wasn't in anxiety about both parents issue anymore. People support him, and he was King's right hand, help him role the country. why is he still the same? I can't see his confidence as an important public figure here. Even people around us have changed their confident once they got good job, haven't they?

The scene Wang so stand for King's little girl, wasn't make any sense. Bark at the king in front of his maids and soldiers when he was King's protector? where was his suppose matured political knowledge and attitude Jimong mentioned? Wasn't he need to protect King's prestigious either? All he need was low but firm voice, and anger suppressed expression instead! but he showed us younger Wang so reaction. LJG faild to portray matured Wang...

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just me

October 18, 2016 at 10:07 PM

That's why, character has higher level of act than expression. My favorite actor and actres here are Jo Min GI (the late king) and Woo Hae Jin (Lady Oh). their scene together were so beautiful. She only did her morning preparation task for the king, still with her flat and firm face, even the king close his eyes! but we can felt how deep their love, how hard they suppressed their filling all the time, and how actually they enjoy each others appearance. They didn't need any word, starring in each other, electricity touch, or strong expression. they seem almost did/ expressed nothing. but we understand their emotions. That were an example of the highest level of act.

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banini

October 18, 2016 at 10:44 PM

It's sad that the two senior actors you like are already dead in this drama. Woo Hae Jin has a 1-episode drama at KBS world, I just forgot the title. It was like a matured romcom. While Jo Min Ki has a lot of other dramas though I have seen him thrice with LJG already: Iljimae, Two Weeks and this one.

I mean @savi, sorry the auto correct did that

PakalanaPikake

October 19, 2016 at 6:10 AM

Re: Jo Min-Gi,

October 18, 2016 at 10:43 PM

this is the first episode where I don't like our heroine much. I always favor her despite all the bashing, but last night episode seems contradict everything I believe about her characters so far.

First, I always thought it was her wise-of-knowing-the-future that making her lied to So. for someone who only know the final result of the history, she can not let her feeling interfere with it. of course after the history put in context, So killing becomes reasonable action and we could easily justify it. but not beforehand. this was Su principle that I admired. Now the Su's letter to So baffles me, showing that it was actually her misjudge.

Second, she looks needy in this episode. her characters seems to move backward. I remember when she defended wook in front of lady oh, saying she trust him and everything. it was her time to be that naive, blinded by young love. but after tremendous hardship (death, betrayal) puts on her, she should have been mature enough and not to let her feeling guides her action. I don't think escaping palace to see some man, committing adultery, is a sign of "mature enough". it's sweet in Romance context, but definitely a reckless things to do putting her own life as a bet. not to mention So.

October 19, 2016 at 1:31 AM

it is not Wook lingering feeling toward Su that will drive him angry, but it is his own ego knowing the fact that Su choose his enemy.

i want to correct my mistake. it was Su who got dumped by Wook. twice.

pigsnout

October 19, 2016 at 7:09 AM

It's true that Su was the one dumped twice, but after the poisoning when she works as a water maid Wook was the one who came to her and said he would win her heart again and she says no, it won't be easy this time. I saw that as her rejecting him.

But it's true that Wook will just think of ego and not realize that he lost all right over Su years ago, or won't see how he and so are different.

Jamie Opso

October 19, 2016 at 7:17 AM

It's true that Wook is not honest with himself: he interprets everything the way he wants to see it. So he can say to himself (and believe on some level) that Hae Soo left him because he wants to be king (conveniently ignoring that what she really objects to is what he was willing to do on the way to the throne, like poison his brother); and then he can castigate her for choosing So, who will be king.

Wook always sees himself as the victim.

In this case, he is comparing himself with So on only the most basic, outer level: they both want to be king. But why do they want to be king? And how do they go about it? What good parts of themselves are they willing to sacrifice? What will they do once they are on the throne?

Del

October 18, 2016 at 11:41 PM

Clap! Clap!
Thank goodness someone agree with me.

"third, how many times she wants ask a man to throw the throne for her ? at wook circumstances, i understand. at So, why ? she wanted to test him ? and what if the answer is no? last time she did leave wook because of this. how about now ? if she stays, boy, Wook will go ballistic."

I made the same comment too. She asked that from Wook and now So. With Wook, I probably could accept since she had known by then that he would never become King and his quest would be fruitless and only end with suffering. But with So??? And have she not witnessed enough suffering due to being powerless???? And no need for So to explain, a kindergarten kid could totally figure out why the throne is so much coveted here.

"I don’t think escaping palace to see some man, committing adultery, is a sign of “mature enough”. it’s sweet in Romance context, but definitely a reckless things to do putting her own life as a bet. not to mention So."

Reckless and romance context is indeed the perfect choice of word. A lot of comments siding Haesoo is more due to tendency of seeing her in a romantic light. But the setting here is so much bigger that the romance. It's hard to root for someone so reckless like Haesoo. She's like a trouble magnet and it's just so hard to like her. Foolishness is a crime because she does not only get herself in trouble, she drag others down into the mud together with her. That is why I just could not like her.

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pogo

October 18, 2016 at 11:48 PM

I think what Su realises here is that her visions of the future are not what she thinks they are because she's been interpreting wrong. She's not all-knowing, and I think she finally understands that as well as Taejo's warning that always looking out for the future means you forget to live in the present (hence her trust in So and sending the letter to Ji-mong - whom she knows as So's ally) and stops trying to change the history she's seen.

October 19, 2016 at 1:25 AM

That said, yes, the fact that So was married did bother Su when she first found out. But I think she now understands the reason behind it so it doesn't weigh on her now.

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Kiara

October 19, 2016 at 5:24 PM

@junah
If they were married she would be his wife. If they were just engaged without a formal ceremony then she is not yet his wife.
In history she was his 2nd wife so there was a formal wedding.

Rules changes over time depending on the king. I don't think every court lady were officially belong to the king back then. They were the lowest rank and they have nothing to offer the king. That doesn't mean that he can't sleep with them if he desires but Taejo had 29 wives already. Their clans contributed to the establishment of Goryeo and keeping it stable.
(I wouldn't count Lady Oh because she was actually Wang Mu's mother and Taejo's 2nd queen in history).

Joseon was very strict so the rules were clear. Every court lady belongs to the king. They were virgins and unmarried when they entered the palace.

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charie

October 19, 2016 at 1:26 AM

What writer is doing to Soo is infuriating. Why does she keep asking people to give something up for her? I can never ask someone to give something up for me, especially if it is important for the other person.

I get the feeling that she still does not trust So fully because she knows how he will turn out, and believes that. She is greedy in changing his fate, I can understand that, she has some knowledge of the future and if we can prevent something bad from happening, I know we all would. But she has to stop asking people to give up this and that, has she not woken up to the fact that everyone's fate seems to be intact and very much in line with her visions, no matter how hard she tried to meddle. Su needs to re-think her actions, she is better than this love sick person who thinks everything will be solved if she and her man would just walk off into the sunset, well, it was possible with Wook, but with So, not really cause she knows So will be king. Why not just support So, fully, and maybe she might have a shot in making him change his fate. All these trust issues, ugh. This is going to bite her in the ass once more I can tell. She has been invested with the guy for what, 2 or 3 years? If she really trusts So, she would believe in the good in him, which he has a lot, no matter what her visions are telling her, call it blind faith or whatnot, and I know it would be terribly hard for her given she knows he is Gwangjong, but take the freaking leap! Have courage and be kind, Su-ya! ;-P

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Ren

October 19, 2016 at 5:34 AM

Now that So's expressed a desire to for the throne, the right decision for Hae Soo is to leave him. Premonitions aside, the show has shown through Wook and Lady Oh's personal history that nothing but suffering that comes out of loving someone who wants to be King. Lady Oh died for Hae Soo to have that lesson. But I think like Soon-deok and indeed all the women on this show, Hae Soo will stay in the Palace with So even if she knows that she's resigned to the same ill fate as Lady Oh. Those plans to retire and travel the world are never going to materialise, that's what Hae Soo is giving up.

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Jamie Opso

October 19, 2016 at 7:27 AM

I completely agree with you, Ren, but truthfully, life outside the palace was likely every bit as dangerous as inside. There's likely less chance of poisoning, but there were rapes, bandits, slavers, war raids... Life was dangerous for everyone, but I think especially for women (physically weaker, sexual targets). Their best chance was to be "safely" married to a good-enough, prosperous-enough, neutral-enough man, and even that was no guarantee of safety. Hae Soo's dream of solo world travel was a pipe dream.

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pogo

October 19, 2016 at 11:51 AM

True, but much the same as today, money could purchase security/secure travel arrangements. Su's not going on any world tours simply because transport would be too damn slow, she'd be lucky to make it to China, forget anywhere else.

That said, yeah, life as a single woman would be quite plagued too.

Ren

October 19, 2016 at 12:12 PM

This is why she should of accepted So's multiple offers to take her away from the palace. Jesus Christ woman if Lee Jun-ki asks you to run away with him and travel the world, the answer is always yes. Like wtf Hae Soo, there's a whole song in the OST based on this.

Jamie Opso

October 19, 2016 at 12:44 PM

Can't say that I disagree with you, Ren...why didn't she? I can't remember, lol. There was a good reason, right? Or not? Hae Soo, you fool!

Gateaudeplotte

October 19, 2016 at 8:15 PM

OOooOOooOOh Yes Lee Jun-ki, take me away~~~~~!!!

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 9:25 PM

That said....I would never say no to Lee Jun-ki taking me away either. I mean, if you're stuck in medieval times with no way home, you may as well take the best of what you can get.

67 happychou

October 18, 2016 at 10:53 PM

this show portrays how someone with ideal and modern thinking (Soo) would not survive politic scene, particularly in this matter, Goryeo. She wouldn't survive a modern politic game, but thrown in the middle of somehow barbaric medieval era of Goryeo it's going bad! Given her characteristic, I don't see this show will end happy for our couple. Honestly I just want to wave my magic wand and return Soo to 2016. Girl is nothing but miserable during her time in Goryeo.
On the other hand, I'm glad So sets his priorities and take actions for his goal towards the throne. I was cheering when he broke up with Soo after Eun's death, Soo needed that wake up call after all despite her actual 'noble' attempts to avoid tragedies between brothers (which was inevitable). Also, So has bigger picture in mind needed proper strategies..and yes, sacrifice. I believe power requires sacrifice, no exception in this matter with So however great his love is for Soo.
It would be awesome if the story line is consistent with its political approach rather than focusing on the love stories (yes it's plural since so many love lines are crossing, some important but some are not) between characters. I would be happy in the love story is focused on the main lead. Seriously, only theirs is enough to give me heartache and headache that last -__-

October 18, 2016 at 10:53 PM

Spoilers ahead!!!

** SPOILERS & SPECULATIONS ***

Exactly!!! If it follows the BBJX plot, then I'm guessing that:

(1) Yeon Hwa will remember her brother chant: "Beware of the 4th prince" -- as told to Wook by Hae Soo. She will then bring it to both Hae Soo & Wang So.

Hae Soo will be shocked & loses her baby (assuming she becomes pregnant) -- she realizes that she plays that pivotal role in all that has happened.

Wang So will feel betrayed & might even marry Yeon Hwa (of all people) to spite Hae Soo. I saw it in a Chinese synopsis that Yeon Hwa will gain the position of queen she's always wanted but not the heart of of the man (Wang So) she truly loves.

(2) Hae Soo has always been physically weak, and the miscarriage will do further damage her.

In addition, Chae Ryong will probably be hanged for (mercury) poisoning Mu & it's another blow to Hae Soo.

(3) And because Wang So really only loves Hae Soo, the sense of betrayal is even more intense. Unfortunately, the angry Wang So will stop seeing Hae Soo and it will be too much for her. She will fall ill again & when her buddy (Prince 13) visits, he will unwittingly brings a cryptic message to Jung to get her out the palace, but Jung interprets it as her willingness to marry him.

(4) Music please: the beginning of Beethoven Symphony #5!
Jung will bring a written royal decree granted by the late Yo to Wang So and he must obey, even if he is King!!. If Wang So doesn't, then it undermines all other royal decrees. DAMN!

(5) Sadly, Hae Soo will only have 2-3 years with Jung and her appeals to see Wang So will go unanswered because he refuses to read it. If the script writers are merciful, her spirit might return to the future. If not, then like the book originally intends, Hae Soo dies in the arms of Jung but not Wang So, the man she loves ... and she never returns to the future.

OH NO! I remember that scene!!! And those beautiful, if painful words, mimicking his handwriting too!!!

As much as I dread it, I am eager to find out how the Korean version will portray it and finally pull the plug to my life support. I am especially curious the Chinese words that they will use -- definitely will push that "pause" button since I read Chinese...

(Already howling & sobbing now... :))

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69 altruysm

October 18, 2016 at 10:56 PM

Okay so does anyone else feel like So wanting the throne is in essence the exact same reason why Wook wants the throne?

Wook could never be with Su so he aspired to be king and change it.

So doesn't want brothers to kill each other anymore more so he aspires to be king and change it.

Wook never gave up on Su in his ambitions so they could be together.

So willingly told Su that he gave up on her (for that two year span) so she wasn't bait for the King anymore.

Wook is in cahoots with the King to overthrow him eventually.

So is doing the King's work, building the new capital etc., in order to become closer and overthrow him eventually.

Su said all she wanted was to be with the person she loved (at each point in time) and that they didn't need to be king. Both said they have to do it in order to change the system.

Wook was saying he would become king so they could be together because the current system doesn't work and he's tired of it keeping them apart.

So is doing it to just stop brothers from killing each other.

If you ask me, Wook's reasonings seem a bit more desirable.

Why is it that So's version works but Wook's doesn't?

I mean Wook "killed" Moo, but So KILLED Eun too (yeah reasons were a bit different but the end result is the same!) In a way So killing Eun helped him get farther on board the Yo train and his regime. Just like Wook killing Moo got him closer to Yo. C'mon now.

That preview for episode 17 too. Aw man way too much shown.

Also need to add how satisfying it was when Su told So that he was lying about not having his feelings for her anymore (around the 20 minute mark of the episode). And he just says that they promised not to lie to each other. BOOOM.

Yes, Wook also did everything he can, but in the wrong way. He sided with the bad guys and actively participated in their evil plots. He traded his "soul" for his goals - throne, family, Su.

So, although he served Yo, was never shown to do horrible things for the king. He pursued Eun but wasn't intending to kill them, only when it was Eun who requsted it himself. His quest for the throne is to stop bad pople from doing more bad things. He sacrificed his personal interest but he never lost himself.

Both loved Su, both were betrayed by her, and both put her aside - they are even in that respect. What was left was what became of them outside of those things: In Su's mind being the good person that she is, these men both caused her pain but it was only So whose heart remained pure (at least up to ep. 16). Wook's trajectory was from good to evil, while So's was the opposite.

It's like looking at two identical pictures that are colored differently, one dark and gloomy while the other bright and happy.

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70 OrangPagi

October 18, 2016 at 11:05 PM

Agreed with heads ,"it’s to the point where I feel like they’re using madness as a cop-out to create an easy way to delegitimize whoever’s on the throne without having to create character-driven reasons for it, that way we’re left with only one option to root for. The simplicity can be nice sometimes, but we lose out on the complexity of So having to actually make plans against a worthy foe when that foe imagines dead people in his room at night". I rather like to see So make an evil plan to trow Yo. Sorry but this drama become more shallow than early episodes

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gem28

October 19, 2016 at 12:00 AM

They wasted 13 freaking episodes on people that do not matter to the central story and only have 4 left to go, add that to the reasons of cop out. Anybody else feel Wook doesn't matter truly and is completely predictable character now having gone circles yet failing at establishing a proper reason for existing as a character. I can predict what they'll do next with him. He now exists solely to drive So and Su apart out of jealousy. Kevin Cheng added so much depth and layers to it and had such a better story line, it hurts to see that reduced to petty nothingness here.

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junah

October 19, 2016 at 12:13 AM

I am not a fan of mad-plot either. we've seen enough with Muu. I expected Yo will be thrown by military coup/decreasing military support lead by General Park in the help of Wang So. that's why soon-deok need to die to make a narrative sense for it. no need to bring the madness.

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alln

October 19, 2016 at 2:58 AM

I know it sucks that we have so many different scenes between SBS and international version, particularly on this episode. The recap here contains only the SBS version, but seriously this episode requires you to watch both SBS and international version to completely grasp the whole story.

About Yo's madness
In the international version, after Jimong told them about Yo's illness, So said that Yo had always been the sensitive one, and that Moo's and Eun's death might affect him much more than what they expected. Also on the scene of Yo praying madly, he asked his mother whether she thought of him only as a sacrifice for her getting the throne. Actually even since Eps 9 we already get a hint of Yo's realization about what his meaning really was for his evil mother. After the rain ceremony, when his mother said, "If I am to rise up as a king's mother, you must be persistent and ruthless.", Yo's face came to disbelief and disappointment, as he said, "I am to raise you up, mother?" He realized that it was all about her and never about him. She supported him to be the king because she wanted to be the king's mother and controlled everything through him. He was merely a tool, a puppet. That also explains how once he got the throne, he asked his mother to stay away from politic. He was trying to free himself from being a tool.

I'd say the fault lies on the evil mother. I believe Yo was born with a good trait, but was raised in a wrong way. He was raised with the vision solely for the throne and the good trait he really had was buried deeply that we don't see any of it. He killed Moo and Eun w/o regret but at subconscious level he was affected deeply. We don't know how many horrible things he had done before but the subconscious stress had accumulated and it was apparently too much for him to bear now, hence it manifested as psychotic disorder (hallucination, delusion) we see here.

October 18, 2016 at 11:35 PM

yeah, I wish they'd left the scar on during that scene too - even the thought of Su touching it while she was trying to map out his makeup, still makes me swoon. Now imagine bringing that to a bed scene?

/slain

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YY

October 18, 2016 at 11:39 PM

What we did not see: So had to get up several times throughout the night to touch up his makeup.

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banini

October 18, 2016 at 11:44 PM

...and fix his hair with some Goryo hairspray, haha!

Yoyo

October 19, 2016 at 12:09 AM

And put on some gloss and re-touch his eyeliner too. Cause the morning afterglow is the real deal.

banini

October 19, 2016 at 12:14 AM

Of course! Who would want to wake up all messy, sticky and sweaty next to the love of your life whom you haven't seen in years! :-D

YY

October 19, 2016 at 12:23 AM

…and brushed his teeth so it’s all minty and sparkly…you don’t want to scare Su off with foul, post-feverish teeth….wait, do they brush teeth in Goryeo? They never show them brushing teeth, only bathing and putting on makeup.

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 1:10 AM

@YY - great, another chapter for the Scarlet Heart reading list - Goryeo-era oral hygiene!

As it turns out, people back then were apparently less prone to tooth decay than we are now, mostly because they didn't have as much sugar in their diets. And apparently the toothbrush was first introduced to China with the advent of Buddhism (and guess which China-adjacent setting for our drama was also Buddhist), they basically just used willow or poplar twigs (there's a history in my country of using neem, which tastes horrible but has known antibacterial properties).

Also medicated toothpaste was first recorded in Song-dynasty China, just about 30 years from our current timeline - not hard to imagine Goryeo might have had some version of it.

Ren

October 19, 2016 at 1:43 AM

@YY @pogo After all the close ups of General Park's teeth, I'm inclined to to think that Goryeo era dental hygiene had room for improvement.

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 2:20 AM

@Ren - he should have taken a cue from Soon-deok, I mean she had perfect teeth. I guess the battlefield doesn't leave you with much time to colour-correct your teeth lol.

happychou

October 18, 2016 at 11:42 PM

Su touching So's scar during makeup scene is the most swoony moment in the history of drama imo. *sighs* Bringing it to a bed scene? DIE.

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banini

October 18, 2016 at 11:45 PM

I was hoping to see Su kiss all of So's scars :O

pogo

October 18, 2016 at 11:56 PM

ikr?!

That part (her touching his face) was the hottest thing I've ever seen.

Yoyo

October 19, 2016 at 12:15 AM

What we all wanted was to see So unleash his inner wolf and imprint the crazy out of Su! Like we all wanted Jacob to imprint on Bella in Twilight, yes, Twilight.

YY

October 19, 2016 at 12:21 AM

...and brushed his teeth so it's all minty and sparkly...you don't want to scare Su off with foul, post-feverish teeth....wait, do they brush teeth in Goryeo? They never show them brushing teeth, only bathing and putting on makeup.

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pogo

October 19, 2016 at 1:11 AM

It's a Buddhist kingdom, there's a high likelihood they knew what a toothbrush was.

chocopieb

October 19, 2016 at 8:32 PM

Well everyone has straight A teeth there, except for the grand general

JoyBells

October 19, 2016 at 1:05 AM

"I would of actually preferred it if they hadn’t concealed his facial scar in that scene, I think it would of added an extra layer of intimacy."
Totally agree. :D

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alln

October 19, 2016 at 3:17 AM

I believe the writer wants to imply that it was indeed So's mental wound and not his physical wound that made him in such a bad shape. Think about that wound itself; it's red and big and infected, yes, but compared with the other wounds he had got (from the size of the scars), this wound is relatively insignificant. I assume that he got those scars back in Shinju, and I think folks in Shinju wouldn't care too much about treating his wounds. But he survived those though, so it's kinda weird that this one affected him so much. And what Soo did was simply applying (what I guess) herbal medicine on it, just like what the doctor might have done. Yet he recovered and regained his strength after making up with her.

Iam addicted to this drama and the weird thing is I don't really watch saguek/ historical dramas , just don't really like them and the last sad ending drama I watched was something happened in Bali ... Iam more into romcom....but this is very addictive and with LJK in it,I really become a different person ...God what is happening to me??

I might skip watching the sad scenes , watch a bit of Eun's death...????

October 19, 2016 at 5:37 PM

After some hard-core nerd analysis, I find that HS's story is actually a perfect Hero's journey.

Here are the stages:

Call to adventure: Hae Su sees the little boy drowning in the lake.
- Refusal of the call - Hae Su convinces herself that someone else will save the boy.
- Accepting the call - Hae Su jumps into the lake anyway.

Entering the Unknown - Hae Su enters ancient Goryeo via an eclipse

Supernatural Aid - Hae Su is a time traveler with knowledge of the future.

Allies/Helpers - Hae Su gains friends, i.e. all the Princes.

Tests and the Supreme Ordeal - Hae Su cuts herself so she does not have to marry the King. Hae Su becomes a court lady. Hae Su is accused of poisoning the crown prince. Hae Su survives torture. Hae Su is punished as a misuri. Hae Su is separated from Wang So. Hae Su falls in love with Wang So. Wang So dumps Hae Su. They make up. Consummate their relationship. Wang So enters the palace as a King. I think this means there’s more Ordeal to be had.

Reward and the Journey Home - Hae Su will most likely die as the journey home. Her reward could be a short-lived true love.

Restoring the World - Hae Su’s purpose, to restore the world from Wang So the tyrant to Wang So the effective monarch is done. She is a hero who saved the world.

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 7:49 PM

@Seltzerwater - I'm kind of in awe right now at how perfectly that all fits.

But it still breaks my heart that Su's journey is still going to have death as its likely end (that is, if she doesn't go back to her own time again).

77 JoseMiro

October 19, 2016 at 1:21 AM

finally .. I've finish hunting down all the versions .. what a life..

I'm right there are 3 version in this eps, the Youku version is basically the same with intl version, the difference is only for the break-up part that's happen after the conversation between So, Baek-ah, Ji Mong and General, while in 2 other version the conversation is part of So's flashback..

Judging from current flow, I'm pretty sure it will end-up just like CDrama, although I really wish that it will twist the end so we could have a happy end ever after (not included reincarnated, because it won't be the same if one party is not remember their story)

Theres this story i read.. About two people who are deeply in love and died almost at the same time. And through times they were reincarnated, sometimes they remember their past, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they meet from young age and live a happy life till old, sometimes they meet as an elderly and a kid. At one time, one of them commits a sin (killed people or something) and for the next couple lifetimes they just can't find each other despite the murderer having the memories of their past. So this one who commits the sin spends a number of his lifetimes searching for his love. And it's only on the final scene that they meet again and the partner is revealed to have been searching from him as well~

I'm voting Hae Su for #1 before her influence on So gets any more princes killed or evilly twisted just by her presence in Goryeo!

I pity poor Yo and Wook the most. Yo was supposed to die, not live on to take the throne, murder his youngest brother and be driven mad by guilt and ghosts. Wook would probably have lived out his days fairly peacefully and never caused poor Mu that torturous death. Eun might not have died because Yo wouldn't have been on the throne, and he and Soon Deok might have played with toys for a good long life. So would already be on the throne, married to Yeon Hwa, and wreaking havoc happily to compensate for his abusive childhood, instead of being chained by love to do the bidding of Yo.

She influences Wang So to be a nicer guy and Wook to be a more ambitious one, and all of a sudden we've got princes dying and going mad.. I'm afraid for Baek Ah and Jung next.

The magical lake(?) and eclipse isn't the culprit. I still say it's someone not something. Then again, I could be wrong.

Barbrey

October 19, 2016 at 2:51 PM

Well my post was tongue in cheek. I subscribe to the idea that while everything I said is true from one perspective,. things could have been a lot worse without her intervention for Goryeo as a fledgeling nation,. But I'm torn between two ideas: is she there to save So's soul so he can reincarnate sooner and find her in the future?, Or is she there to make sure the history she knows becomes the history she knows? Or a combination.
Ji Mong also muddies up the picture. There was that one curious line he says about when you realize something is fate, that's the moment it becomes fate.

Anyway, the two operators I see working hand in hand as well as opponents behind the scenes - we can personify then if we want - are Fate and History. History is like a machine pushing forward through time and it can't really be changed over the long term. Certain events must happen in that timeline: Fate is more concerned with individuals, so even though an individual can change the circumstances of their lifetime by following a different fate, other characters then come into play to enact the original fate and History stays on course.

History______________________Su-Fate /T\________________________

Whenever Su makes some kind of change in So's character, he has some ability to change his personal fate, but the History machine can't be gainsayed and if he doesn't enact pivotal events then someone else must.

Eun is a case in point. He was going to die in whichever version. History demanded it because his grandfather really could have overthrown the kingdom; Eun was the figurehead for that rebellion and the only thing lending it legitimacy. Wang So would have killed him if he had been king at that time, and with less regret because he would not have had Su's influence operating on him. Thus we see the deviation in History - Su's influence gives him a different personal fate in that he does not plan Eun's death, but that same influence created the circumstances for Yo to live on instead and plan the deed himself - because History demands it be done.

Anyway, that"s how I see it at this point. By becoming So's friend and giving him a moral reference point, So splits off in a more compassionate direction, but every action creates an equal and opposite reaction , as Einstein would say, so Su simultaneously creates changes in Wook, and Yo being alive as a result too, that bring the History machine back on course. I haven't explained this very well, have I? Oh well, it's just a hypothsis I've been playing with.

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 4:35 AM

Where's Wook? As the one who put Won up to the mercury plot, he should at least be tied with him!

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Q

October 19, 2016 at 5:25 AM

Um... Queen SMS should be higher up on that list?

But I agree Jung's hair needs to go, plus that ugly armour that doesn't suit him at all.

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pogo

the only good thing she did is the makeup than in philosophical view for me is 2 step backwards, better make So embrace his weakness in front of her and not covered it,

the best part is more woman in 21st century knew something can change if you learn from your mistake and not accepting the fate/condition as it is,

October 19, 2016 at 4:36 AM

Is Jung blind to Yo? He stood next to Yo when they walked to the palace. He stood next to King Mo when Yo took the crown. He saw Yo threaten Hae Soo. He saw how his mother divide her own sons. He saw So come to his rescue when street fighters tried to chop his hand off. So why does he hate Prince So so much when as a general he knew that his own brother would be hunted down as a traitor? Also since Yo actually returned from death.
HaeSoo and So did NOT do it. So wanted HaeSoo to have freedom more than anything, even willing to divorce her if she didn't love him. For the first time in several years she was not under guard, threat ,in pain or watched and willingly in his company. He knew that HaeSoo wouldn't have had an easy life living in the kingdom with a constant threat to her life with Yo trying to get So to do his bidding wherever he lived. So I assumed they both savored the freedom and each other's company.
If they did do it. I want to know how their secret to well maintained coif. It would greatly help at a sleepover at BF's place.

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JoyBells

October 19, 2016 at 5:45 AM

@abha. I'll post a comment i made else where on this thread.This is my take on Jung's hatred for Su.

Am I the only who noticed that So hugged Su after they kissed just before the candle went off in the international version?

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JoyBells

October 19, 2016 at 5:49 AM

Yup i think in the international version, Su pulled Soo in for a hug after the kiss before the candle went off. And in SBS version,he kissed her and then kissed her a second time and then the candle went off.

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85 kumoiwa

October 19, 2016 at 4:41 AM

I think I'll be proactive and start up the group chat, so anyone who wants to join in at Google Hangouts can just leave their emails in this comment thread, and I'll just try to add everyone in!

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pogo

October 19, 2016 at 5:13 AM

I'll go first!

skylilies @ gmail (dot) com

- In the int version, So said that Yo had always been the sensitive one, and that Moo’s and Eun’s death might affect him much more than what they expected.
- On Eps 9 after the rain ceremony, angry evil mother said, “If I am to rise up as a king’s mother, you must be persistent and ruthless.” Yo’s face then came to disbelief and disappointment, as he said, “I am to raise you up, mother?”
- On eps 15 when evil mother asked him to get rid of his brothers to secure the throne, Yo told her to stay away from politic, and she looked shock.
- On the scene of Yo praying madly, he said to his mother that she didn’t see him as a son but a boar that she sacrificed in order to get the throne.

All of these scenes showed us where Yo’s madness really comes from. Like So said, Yo is actually a sensitive person. I believe Yo was born with a good trait, but was raised in a wrong way. He was raised by evil mother as a person who would do anything for the throne and the good trait he really had was buried deeply that we don’t see any of it and even he himself never realized it existed. Evil mother raised him to be his tool, but poor Yo thought that her mom wanted him to be the king because she loved him. It was only on eps 9, after she slapped him and said the words above that he realized it was all about her and never about him. She supported him because she wanted to be the king’s mother and controlled everything through him. He was merely a tool, a puppet. This realization was such a hard kick to him, but he loved his mother too much he would just try harder to get the throne in hope to earn his mother’s love. His determination for the throne was so strong that he killed Moo w/o slightest regret, but given his original trait, subconsciously he felt guilty. On eps 15, once he got the throne, he was happy to see his mom satisfied and hoped to finally get her love. But evil mother showed her true intention by giving him political instruction instead; she wanted to control him. This must give another subconscious kick to him that her mother really used him as her tool. Then to secure his throne, he eventually had to kill Eun. This served as the final blow to him, because eventhough we don’t see any regrets, subconsciously he had more than he could bear. The accumulation of subconscious stress from doing the opposite of his conscience was so much it started to lead to madness. And in this state of mind, rather than comforting him, evil mother asked him to make Jung CP. This was such a final confirmation that his mother never loved him and added to another blow on his already distracted mind. The madness finally came to full force when he heard and saw Taejo’s, Moo’s, and Eun’s “ghost”.

I'm not really convinced that So has re-prioritized as far as loving Su is concerned. Especially not after doing the floorboard tango with her knowing full well that she is now in every sense truly his person.

October 20, 2016 at 12:12 AM

Yes, that's what I meant. I was referring specifically to the last few minutes of conversation.

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Jamie Opso

October 20, 2016 at 7:40 AM

Ah, I see. Thanks, Lilium!

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88 Wag-a-muffin

October 19, 2016 at 6:45 AM

May I say how impressed I am with Z.Hera. I loved her scenes. I cried when she died. I look forward to seeing more of her in the future.
And for an idol, Baekhyun did a good job too. I was a bit annoyed with seeing so much of him in a (seemingly) unnecessary part. But the dude died well.

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gem28

October 19, 2016 at 9:10 AM

And Prince Run's tombstone will forever read, "The dude died well"

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Flightey Gazelles

October 21, 2016 at 3:20 AM

Eun's tombstone:

'The dude died well'
LMAO!!!!

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89 Lin_K

October 19, 2016 at 6:52 AM

Thank you for the recap, Heads!

What an episode! I don't know if I can be happy for our OTP or be sad for Eun and SD.

I'm so grieved by the death of Eun. He was childish and irritating sometimes but was cute and happy in the middle of all the schemers. It's sad that he and SD had to die so soon, just when their happy life had begun. Eun joined his wife valiantly. May they rest in peace. General Park also made me tear up when he was asking after his daughter.

...............................................................................

I'm happy for our OTP. They are so cute together. I'm glad they are finally together, in every sense ;) ;) It's great to see that they are fighting to be with each other, through all the obstacles life throw at them. It shows that they are meant to be, as opposed to Su and Wook. If the drama had given us OTP moments a little sooner, it would have made viewers happier and less annoyed at all of its flaws. It's regrettable that it's so late now.

LJK's performance was great again, especially when he broke down after slashing Eun. I hope he gets a Daesang for his performance in this drama!

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PakalanaPikake

October 19, 2016 at 11:19 AM

LJK’s performance was great again, especially when he broke down after slashing Eun. I hope he gets a Daesang for his performance in this drama!

You and me both... Truth to tell, Jang Hyuk deserves one for his performance in BEAUTIFUL MIND as well... Maybe the drama gods can arrange it for both of them.

Z.Hera died with her boots on, and Baekhyun really rose to the occasion for his swansong... The looks that passed between him and LJG after he asked hyungnim to deliver the coup de grace... damn! Good night, sweet prince.

I was reminded of the mercy killing in FAITH when Choi Young tenderly dispatched the deposed little prince who drank the poison intended for the general... I guess So didn't have a dagger handy.

As for So's reaction to Eun's death, no matter what sound he makes, keep watching his eyes. That's not laughter... that's the sound of choking back grief, a heart breaking, gasping for air -- all at the same time. I think it was through sheer force of will that So got himself under control so quickly. It would have been so easy to continue too long and histrionically... In this case, less is more -- and underscores So's history of having to button down his emotions in order to survive. My hat is off to LJG for conveying this scene so realistically.

October 19, 2016 at 10:50 PM

Ratings mostly, and some awards (best couple, I think?) are done by fan votes.

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Lin_K

October 20, 2016 at 12:19 PM

Yes, I know. The station may not give him an award coz of the ratings. It's a really sad situation. But there are other types of drama awards outside of SBS, right? I forgot it's name.

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90 Ren

October 19, 2016 at 7:44 AM

Some Thoughts on the Pursuit of the Throne and the Interplay of Nature, Nurture and Destiny

Although the show hasn’t really handled the political machinations of the show deftly, I think it’s pretty clear that Wook, Yo and So’s desire for the throne are founded on completely different grounds.

Wook’s desire to be King is innate. His ambition sits at the core of his very being and all other priorities are rendered secondary. Thus Wook is a clinical ruthless actor, because the throne is the paramount driver in his life and therein he is willing to cut down who ever it takes to get there. This part of his nature doesn’t sit well with Wook who was taught to be kind, principled and upright. His behavior and desires completely contradicts what he knows to be right and is completely inconsistent with how others perceive him and what he likes about himself. This is why Wook constantly shifts the blame for his plotting; he’s doing it for Su, he’s doing it for his family, anyone but himself. The mismatch between Wook’s nature and worldview leaves him absolutely miserable. He is distraught when Su calls him out on his greed for wanting the throne, because he knows she is right and he hates it. No matter how much he hates it though, Wook can’t help but move forward with his pursuit, because our nature inevitably prevails.

October 19, 2016 at 8:28 AM

Did someone ever bring up the theme of OST of Moon Lovers? I just realized mostly the songs have sad theme. These are my favorite songs from the show and some of their lyrics in English.

~Lee Hi - My Love~
You’re someone who I can’t have
A person I have to forget

My love is getting farther away
I need to let you go, Because it’s not me

~Jung Seung Hwan - Wind~
Our unfinished fate is stopped here
Even if we live in longing tears

It’s like the scattering wind
So I try to find it but it’s like an undiscoverable path

I can’t hold on to the distancing fate
So my heart is letting you go

When the sun sets you will disappear
So I’m going to place you in my eyes

When darkness comes
I have to forget you I need you let you go like this

~Davichi - Forgetting You~
My dear, don’t forget
My unstoppable love

It’s okay even if it’s a little late
If it’s destiny we will meet again

Forgetting you is such a hard thing
It’s me turning around and crying
My sad dream

Some day I hope I can love you all I want

______________________________________

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chocopieb

October 19, 2016 at 6:46 PM

Politically-wise, eun's death confirms yo's being throned king. Bcs he is trying to make it seem like eun and his family is the traitor (when wanggyu actually opposes yo, and coming from a very powerful clan, the existence of wanggyu and any of his family is pretty threatening to yo)

October 19, 2016 at 9:26 AM

Guys, is the scene where So said Yo was the weak-minded one really deleted from the SBS version?

Because I've been watching the Vietnamese version that SBS sold to us and *I think* (haven't actually checked so far) it has been the same as SBS version, but then what I just watched has that line??!!

*mind-blown*

October 19, 2016 at 11:34 AM

I am living in Germany and these videos are blocked here. Same thing with Moonlight and Uncontrollably Fond. Did you watch the version with So defending Baek-ah in front of Yo (maybe ep 5) and So proposing to Soo after she covered his scar in ep 8? The scene where Jung said he would no longer call Soo an older sister must be in the international version.

Did HTV2 just buy the newly edited one and then mix it up again =))))? That would be weird. However, I have watched the show from different websites and on Dramanice they also have it quite mixed up, some episodes I believe are the SBS version, some are not.

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pogo

October 19, 2016 at 11:42 AM

Basically, if it has an SBS logo in the corner, it's the version aired in Korea.

Jung's 'I'm not calling you an older sister any more' scene is part of the international version, like you said. Dramafever blocks the episodes outside the US but I actually saw the scene on their youtube channel, it was subbed separately.

Lucifermeo

October 19, 2016 at 6:11 PM

Yeah, they block foreign IP but if you visit the FB page Moon Lover Bộ Bộ Kinh Tâm bản Hàn the admins have kindly reupload all the VN subbed version on google drive for ppl staying overseas :))

I don't really remember so far back since I marathoned 1-10 but for recent eps what I watched was consistent with Heads' recap and extra scenes in the Intl version were not in there (as well as the annoying rap thank goodness) like all the Jung-So hint or the extra convo between Wook and his family. If I remember correctly the placement of the Eun wedding night scene also matches SBS, not Intl version.

But now I am confused ...

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 10:43 PM

Wait, how many versions does this show have again? SBS, dramafever, youku..... and now each country it's aired in is getting its own slightly-tweaked version?

96 pogo

October 19, 2016 at 12:12 PM

so after all the talk about music and how this drama kept messing up with its OST use, I found something of an alternate instrumental theme for So and Su:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYwpt092O7U

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PakalanaPikake

October 19, 2016 at 11:01 PM

Ah, very nice, and the title ("Violence and Variations"), along with the music itself, aptly fits the vibe in Goryeo.

Can't believe it's been 12 years since I watched BATTLESTAR GALACTICA on SyFy. Where has the time gone?

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pogo

October 20, 2016 at 6:35 AM

yayyyyyy another BSG watcher!

I actually started watching kdramas on a regular basis because I was so gutted by how the pilots couple played out in that drama because I wanted fluff and happy endings, and kdramas fit that bill perfectly.

And now here I am, getting my heart torn out by a kdrama couple headed for similar destined doom.

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PakalanaPikake

October 21, 2016 at 4:24 PM

Hang in there, pogo...

Wang So and Hae-Su may be able to avoid the Goryeo equivalent of being spaced out an airlock. I'm counting on Ji-Mong to have something up his sleeve besides his arm... ;-)

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pogo

October 21, 2016 at 10:37 PM

seriously, anything beats literally poofing out of existence with no warning. But I'm not hopeful.

97 Aimee

October 19, 2016 at 1:20 PM

I just wanna say that I love reading everyone's comments here :) I don't watch Korean dramas that often so my take on things are pretty shallow, I'm glad I discovered this site

Btw Jimong in the last scene being "Well, I did arrange a day of thunder to scare him but HOW would I know that someone is going to struck by lightning??" is cracking me up for some reason. I know I shouldn't but lmao

@Aimee, @pogo,

This scene confused me, especially the reference to "dry lightning," because such a thing exists. It's apparently a common meteorological phenomenon in central Florida. People can be struck dead out of a clear blue sky as far as 10 miles away from a thunderstorm.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-07-05/news/os-lightning-deaths-florida-20130705_1_lightning-alley-lightning-deaths-john-jensenius

Makes me wonder what was involved in Jimong's production of thunder... Sympathetic magic? Shooting off sky rockets?

Also, I came across different references to the victim: one subtitle referred to an ambassador getting barbecued, another stated a monk got flash fried... Which was it?

As for Hae-Su's heart attack assumption, it dovetails with So's statement that Yo had always been the sensitive one. Aside from the emotional shock of witnessing the heavens smiting someone, I'm willing to bet that Yo's system would not have stood up well to that kind of electrical discharge in his general vicinity, even if he were outside the actual kill zone.

Yo really does look like he's being poisoned, too. I wouldn't put it past Won...

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pogo

October 20, 2016 at 1:26 AM

@PakalanaPikake - WHOA I did not know dry lightning was an actual thing! I thought Ji-mong was speaking in metaphors, but to imagine it literally, and to imagine Yo witnessing something of the sort, is kind of stunning.

Chalk up another entry for the Moon Lovers geek list, you've officially blown my mind.

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PakalanaPikake

October 21, 2016 at 4:31 PM

With the emphasis on stunning...

Glad to be of service. ;-)

pogo

October 20, 2016 at 1:28 AM

And yeah, from what I've read, lightning strikes can result in survivors developing health problems after the event, though often not till several months or even a year later. So yeah, Yo is not long for this world.

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PakalanaPikake

October 21, 2016 at 4:41 PM

Just think of it as getting all your circuits fried with massive ch'i overload.

Add to that the chronic stress of Mommy Dearest's relentless politicking, and it would be amazing if Yo has any adrenals left.

Throw in a guilty subconscious, and Yo is going to permanently psych himself out.

pogo

October 21, 2016 at 10:36 PM

It's like getting your brain literally fried.

Yo is a bastard but I'm almost sorry for him this episode. Almost.

98 shelly

October 19, 2016 at 2:50 PM

this is the only episode where i get the love for baekhyun. he didn't impress me much on his cutesy clueless eun prince, but oh that death scene. so much innocence lost there in his eyes. heartbreaking. now why didn't we have all that power and real feeling in all the other episodes he was in?

of course, sharing that scene with LJK couldn't have hurt. that manic, incredulous laughter... i was in tears for them both. he remembered that birthday - it's been a few years, right? and so pretending he didn't remember it, later - yeah right, not buying it. i believed back then that was one of the reasons eun was going to die - but it turns out he did remember it, and admitted to being duped by yo - he must've felt remorse about it. but as with soon deok, he was too late with the apology. still, i forgave him all his missteps for that death scene.

there, soo! see why so did it? ha. if she were to trust so earlier, eun might have not died. it's been years. dammit. why not lend him a shred of trust before it's too late? then again she's there for a plot twist, not really participating. still, that candle that couldn't stay lit, lol. they did the dirty, did they?! and later on, soo asking so to forgo the throne and him being all - nah, i guess i'll go for it - LOL. that man's mind stays made up. and he has all the reasons to be like that - even if she is now his lover, she still did betray their no-lies-all-trust relationship. he could feel entitled to act without taking her requests into consideration, on the purpose of putting an end to yo's acts. he is in the position to do something about it, AND if he stood it out, the next king might be won - haha, not happening, he's the snake in the grass prince - or wook. yup, so not going to leave place for wook. baek-ah has no chance, jung won't get it cause mommy dearest is there sinking all his ships in her desire to see him enthroned in yo's place. it's so or go bust, lol.

yo... oh, i love him being mad. eun's supposed treason happens rather fast after yo becoming king - who's to say he was of sane mind before he returned? he did have a try at having moo out before he became king, then fell off that cliff (hit his head? lol), then he killed his younger brother whom he knew to be innocent of treason... he might be deranged before the time skip. AND i'm betting if chae was the one poisoning moo with the mercury, she did it because either wook or won asked it. i'm betting wook. if one poisoning succeeds, why not another? maybe not with mercury, but she's in damiwon. something's in yo's tea, lol.

wook - his trembling hands when yo tells of eun's death. remorse, wook? you should be remorseful. but maybe not enough, eh? he was touching in his short scenes here. maybe he'll redeem himself by the end of the story.

but so still carries it - if so wasn't in this drama, there would be no story left. all hail wang so! (and LJK. this is his best portrayal ever - and i've seen...

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shelly

Hmm. I see what you mean, but I find the So/Su relationship plenty epic. The progression of the relationship over time is what makes it epic for me. I mean, compare the first time they stargaze together in episode four with the stargazing in episode 16. They’ve come so far! I wouldn’t say the Wook/Su relationship was more epic. I think there was more emphasis on the romantic MOMENTS between the two of them – and the heady feeling of first love was really well done – but in the whole scheme of things, I find Su and So’s love for each other more compelling.

I think there was no aha moment for Su because she fell in love with So so gradually – that, and her feelings for So and Wook overlapped. (“I become afraid every time we meet. I know that I had feelings for another, so why is it that I can’t let you go and ignore you?”) I think we would be able to pinpoint the moment Su fell for So if things with Wook had been broken off cleanly beforehand, but they weren’t. I actually think Su might have had feelings for So as early as episode eight… but that might be a whole other comment, ha. Personally, the moments we got in episodes 14-16 – rewriting the poem, the way Su ran thinking So had returned to see her, the back hug, keeping the arrow – completely sold me on her love for him. In a way, I think those were aha moments, just backwards.

Is it on Hae Soo's side that you're feeling the lack of epic-ness, or So's, or both?

I think on So's side, it was pretty darn epic: all those years pursuing her, claiming her as "his person," pining for her...drinking poison for her, going down to his knees to Yo for her, becoming Yo's dog for her, taking an arrow for her.

Now he's backed off his pursuit of her in favor of the throne, so it's less romantically epic. Granted, as someone said (I think Ren?), he would be happy to have his cake and eat it, too (Hae Soo and the throne), but that's not nearly the same thing.

Hae Soo's demonstrated feeling toward So has been a lot less epic, until this episode--with the notable exception of worrying about him when she was in prison, a mess herself from having been tortured; and being on his side when others weren't.

But this episode, you have her waiting faithfully for two years after he left her, declaring herself to him, risking her life to leave the palace to see him. That's pretty epic, isn't it? She has a long way to go to match his previous in-love behavior, though.

Or is your question why she's attracted to So that's the missing piece for you? Umm...because he's extremely loyal? (Well, he was, until he decided he wanted the throne.) Because he looks out for her and sticks up for her?

She's definitely attracted to him; or has been plotted that way since he first swept her up on his horse. She's had a lot of moments of intense physical attraction to him--or we did, at the show's behest. Also I think we felt her trying to resist his swoon-worthy declarations of love and possession, much to our collective frustration. She's been trying to use her head when it comes to him, which is what she should have used with Wook.

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Jamie Opso

October 19, 2016 at 6:18 PM

PK, Lily listed Wook-Soo moments, so I'll give listing So-Soo moments a try (though not necessarily in order):

1) He sweeps her up on his horse and has (as someone else said) hot eye-sex with her for prolonged moments.

2) He saved her from Yeon Hwa's beating.

3) He threatens her with death a few times.

4) She has lunch with him on the mountain when he's ll by himself.

5) He nearly chokes her to death when she sees him without his mask in the bath.

6) He destroys the mom-rocks in an emotional breakdown, but she calms him down with her empathy and is not afraid of him.

6.5) He runs away with her when she's going to be married off against her will.

6.75) He's furious that she risked her life by slashing her wrist.

7) She makes it possible for him to take off his mask (with makeup) and complete the rain ceremony.

7.5) When did he kiss her, then steal her out of the palace (again on horseback) to take her to the ocean, and then say he would run away with her any time she wanted? He gave her the hairpin of love.

8) She cradles him when he collapses from poison and cries out for help.

9) She worries about him when she's in prison, even after she's been tortured. They have a really touching scene together.

9.5) She straightens under his protective cloak in the rain during her protest.

9.75) She collapses in his arms in a breakdown when Lady Oh is executed.

10) She says goodbye to him when he leaves, not revealing she's being exiled to water slave status.

11) She is clearly overcome with emotion when he returns, though she does not want to reveal it to him.

12) She tells him to basically leave her alone because he's a reminder of bad things to her, though her voiceover says very differently.

...

49) She met him all dressed up and wearing his hairpin in anticipation of love, which led to...

50) Boat scene, when he was going to propose to her had "clouds" in the form of marriage to his little niece not come up.

There's lots more, although I'm too exhausted to get into it now. I think their relationship had a lot of "moments" and a lot of progression--but she has kept resisting and taking steps backward until now.

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pogo

October 19, 2016 at 7:56 PM

@Jamie - She’s been trying to use her head when it comes to him, which is what she should have used with Wook.

THIS EXACTLY. I feel like that didn't really begin happening until after she got the idea that So was Gwangjong via her visions, because up until then she ran largely on instinct when it came to him as a friend.

I'll also add to their moments the time when she visited the palace and met him and told him how pretty he looked in his new prince clothes (before finding out Queen SMSS is a terrible mom and that So wasn't in thehappy family she supposed).

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YY

October 19, 2016 at 9:42 PM

Jamie, love your recaps of those moments...I feel wistful reading your post, it's like all these happened a lifetime ago, 4 eps left, I'm going to be so sad when this show ends...

Jamie, pogo - I read somewhere someone mentioned the possibilty of Su being eventually poisoned by her treacherous maid, Chae Ryung, and losing her baby...omg, if that is really going to happen, it would be devastating, and again, So's words will ring true: Trust no one in the palace.

And, pogo, thanks for your tooth brushing info...I'm curious, what did they use to brush their teeth with, did they make their own toothbrushes as well?

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 10:16 PM

@YY - OH MY GOD NO WHY DID YOU MENTION THAT NOOOOO I don't think we'll survive watching that. (and if Chae-ryung does the poisoning, she can go and be boiled for all I care, I'm so done with her, and everyone whose orders she's acting on)

as for Goryeo dental hygiene, apparently by the time the Song dynasty (AD 970-ish, about 30 years in the future from current Goryeo time) rolled around, both toothpaste and mass-produced toothbrushes were available in the market, but the early 'toothbrushes' were just twigs they rubbed their teeth with, to dislodge matter. Given the Chinese influence on Goryeo, I'm inclined to believe they had the tooth stuff on hand too. Also the 'toothpaste' of that time:

decocting willow branches, Chinese scholar tree branches and mulberry branches added with ginger juice and the root of Chinese wild ginger

I've heard of toothpastes also being made with salt (makes sense, since salt was widely produced and traded back then, and I've used it to clean my own teeth in a pinch when there was no toothpaste on hand) and clove oil.

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 10:20 PM

Oh, and apparently gargling was also a thing back then - people used wine/vinegar to do it. So yeah, they were pretty well covered on the hygiene front, or at least they tried.

I can't believe the things this drama makes me do.

YY

October 19, 2016 at 10:55 PM

@pogo I am just blown away by your incredible Goryeon sleuthing skills...your dedication to the task of uncovering bits and pieces of obscure Goryeon history, and enlightening the rest of us here, is just beyond amazing. Thank you so much.

Yes, I was crushed, I actually felt cold when I came across the post...it had never occurred to me before; I had assumed Chae-ryung would have to be punished along with Won for what they did to Moo, but never, ever had I thought she would have a hand in Su's much-touted impending miscarriage. I hope this is just speculation.

And now comes another thought - does this mean the punishment of Chae-ryung and Won will only be in the final episodes? Perhaps Ep 19? Su miscarries, So discovers who did it, under threat of death, Chae-ryung confesses to the prior poisoning of Moo?

And another thought - if Chae-ryung really does poison Su, does Wook have a hand in it? Omg, that would be soooo cold, so inhuman.

pogo

October 19, 2016 at 11:48 PM

@YY - awww, I'm blushing. But I really didn't do much, all it took was a simple google search on oral hygiene in ancient China (which I figured would be a strong influence on Goryeo, since the Goryeo costumes are Chinese-influenced too, plus someone had already disclosed in a previous post that Goryeo was a Buddhist kingdom).

And Goryeo dental hygiene is a far more pleasant thought to dwell on than the prospect of what you mentioned, the magnitude of the betrayal that would be, boggles my mind, like it actually hurts to even think, I can't believe they would stoop that low.

(I really hope this is just speculation and not based on production spoilers, because omg why can't SBS keep its shit locked down, why are these producers so sloppy and ruining their own plot twists by giving them away in previews, whyyyyyyyyy)

Jamie Opso

October 20, 2016 at 5:47 AM

@pogo: "I feel like that didn’t really begin happening [Hae Soo trying to use her head with So instead of her heart] until after she got the idea that So was Gwangjong via her visions, because up until then she ran largely on instinct when it came to him as a friend."

Yes, I completely agree with you; and I think things were better before she went against her instincts with him. I too think she started rejecting her attraction to him because of her visions, but also because she was in love with Wook.

Oh, and also because of Lady Oh's death (which she felt responsible for) and Lady Oh's cautionary tale of love lost in the palace and her warnings about the princes, which Hae Soo only took seriously after Lady Oh's death; and also because of Wook's eventual abandonment of her.

All those things began working against her instinct to accept So. I can't really blame her for questioning herself and trying to control her feelings of attraction, in the face of all those circumstances.

Jamie Opso

October 20, 2016 at 6:01 AM

@YY: "I feel wistful reading your post, it’s like all these happened a lifetime ago, 4 eps left, I’m going to be so sad when this show ends…"

It does feel like forever ago, doesn't it? I was amazed at how much history they had together, too, when I started listing them. I feel like we've been on this journey with them for a very long time.

I do think they had a relationship progression together; it's just that So was extremely needy and jumped into their relationship with both feet early on ("you're mine," etc.), and Hae Soo has been trying to resist her attraction to him for various reasons for so long.

(IRL, I think both men are super problematic and should definitely be avoided--but in the context of this show...they are super problematic and should definitely be avoided? That's me using my head, lol.)

"Jamie, pogo – I read somewhere someone mentioned the possibilty of Su being eventually poisoned by her treacherous maid, Chae Ryung, and losing her baby…omg, if that is really going to happen, it would be devastating, and again, So’s words will ring true: Trust no one in the palace."

Aargh, Chae Ryung: like pogo I am so done with her (and Won Weaselly, too)!

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Lilium

October 20, 2016 at 12:28 AM

I never found Su and Uk's romance to be epic. He always seemed so indecisive and self-centred for me to really get behind him. It's not to say that LJE and KHN didn't have great chemistry but their romance was pretty skin-deep. Starry-eyed, young love sort of thing that just couldn't possibly stand the test of time.

What was the beginning of the end for me was when Baek-A gave Su a roasting about betraying Lady Hae while Uk just stood there, heard everything and not said a word in her defence or take the blame. Then there was his craven hesitation to act when Yeon Hwa was beating her.

I have always loved the slow progression of Su and So. To me it's one of the best things about the show. I liked that they were really down to earth with each other. To me that's so out-of-the-box for a Kdrama that it's epic. Whatever else Su did with Uk that was sweet, nothing beats the way she traced the scar on So's face with her finger... maybe except the prison scene.

I think we're so used to characters having these epiphanous "OMG, I think I'm in love with XYZ" moments in K dramas that anything that's a bit different just doesn't feel right.

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