It has to be, hands down, the best drama I've ever seen. Nothing comes close. The more I watch the more I feel nothing ever will come close.

It's so smart and well thought; it produces actually thought. I remember pausing it just to make it last a tad longer, re-watching and having a different viewer experience. I literally could rave about this drama for hours.

Additionally, the ending spurred a series of tears and hyperventilation. I was actually clutching myself from the pain.

Such a fantastic and original take on a "love story" that shows a love that is both "pure" in it's obsession and passion as well as "dirty" in it's effects, consequences, and actions. I've never seen such a fantastic piece of work.

Despite it's infamous ending, I would really love to have a love that powerful once (could it even be more then once?) in my life.

Are we going to talk about WHIB AGAIN?!? Why, don't mind if I do. :D (people don't realize this, but there's a meme in Dramabeans, where discussions of What Happened in Bali break out . . . JUST BECAUSE)

There's a reason for the high school thing. Some years, when Boys Before Flowers was still searching for a cast, producers asked a poll who should play Douymouji/Jung Pyo. Jo In Sung won that hands down.

Memories of Bali is Boys Before Flowers . . . on a coke binge. It's a Cinderella story where Cinderella is treated like Alice in Wonderland. It's the Chaebol drama that wears its decadent intentions, less like Gossip Girl, and more like a Bret Eaton Ellis novel.

Jo In Sung is reckless and shameless in Bali. Coward, fool, masculine ethos is annihilated with every utterly pathetic gesture. And yet. The ferocity of Jo In Sung's Oedipal tantrums belies this uncomfortably compelling sense that Jo In Sung doesn't want to merely make love to Ha Ji Won, he wants to be inside her womb, as if she could give him a soul that he realizes he never had. His love is childish AND vampyric, anguished and all-consuming. It is the primal and emotional magma all the Noona Killer "feel good" stuff would rather you not look.

Jo In Sung's performance is a gamble. He went too far in this show, overstepped emotional boundaries with Ha Ji Won that a less "there" (manipulative?) actress would say "STOP!" Why does he do this? Because he gambles that you would still say yes. And you do. You hate yourself. You still give in. He brings out maternal instincts into the romantic forefront that disgust you, yet compels you to to draw in. Noona can't say no.

Oh yeah, So Ji Sup is good in this too. ;) Many people don't realize this, but Jo In Sung was originally meant to play So Ji Sup's role. Bali was going to use a much older actor to play Jae-min, but that fell through, and in a way What Happened in Bali became something else.

Oh I forgot. Without Bali, we wouldn't have Andy's "fist-in-mouth ARRGGHHHHHH!!!!" gesture.

Here's the Love Letter episode with Ha Ji Won and Shinhwa. Skip to 6:50 for Andy and his AARRRGGGHHHH!!!!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3c83z_loveletter-season-1-part-1-ha-jiwon_people

Belleza, I had no idea Fight-Club-esque bouts of WHIB exaltation broke out in said forum...I feel ashamed. I love everything you wrote, naturally. Let me take my joy in small bites - and reply to every little point.

Firstly, I thought there was a poll and Chun Jung Myung won? I suppose I am misinformed! Then again if I was ever faced with a poll of any sort, and Jo In Sung's name was on it, you'd never hear a 'nay' from these fingertips.

Secondly, can I say how much I love this:

"Jo In Sung doesn't merely want to make love to Ha Ji Won, he wants to be inside her womb," truer words, truer word.

His character is so flawed. Unanimously a bit dull in the head (his conversations with his brother? Poor little pea-pod...) I could go on...but I am speaking with someone who knows all that, so I'll skip the obligatory descriptor. The point: he's raw flesh and blood, so dirty and so imperfect, and so much, much, greater then any level of ridiculous that dares to include the words "Prince" and "First Love" in their titles.

It's obsession. It's absolute pure obsession. And our language doesn't quite fit with what we need to use to describe him because what we are asked to see as 'love' is not the degradation of humanity but it's upliftment (see degradation as empowerment: 'Atlas Shrugged' mutually desired "rape") It's dirty. That level of need. Yet it never becomes less then 4 dimensional because he still experiences the need for money and some-kind of family system. For a bit.

And I love his love. I love all the steps he goes through. The initial intrigue, the desire of the body, the need to possess it for himself, and the jealousy that elevates that "need" to dangerous levels.

He clearly realizes he can't just take her body. It's not enough nor will it ever be - a bit like the Grecian hell where you see the grapes and water, and they are just a fingertip away from your malnurished form. I firmly believe, he could probably live his life never leaving the conjugal bed, never leaving her..., forcing her to repeat "I love you"s, and his mind would still have doubts and need "more" from her.

Can I tell you how much I love the mutual uncommunication? And not that ridiculous, "Ah, they missed each other because they we're constructing a toll booth - see, it's fate." I love that at that beginning they act differently (and on both their parts, regret that natural personality shift) and communication is presented in such a real fashion. As they continue their relations you start to see both those social, hegemonic, walls crack - his infamous "I want to have you....I want to give you pleasure, I want to make you smile, etc." and then his confession that he seems to do all the opposites - and all in the position of holding her hands, bowing his head, and being literally crippled with emotions. Naturally there's also the crying phone scene, communication at one of it's most simplistic (a phone - what else is it for) but so uncommunicative. An actual modern day, human made, barrier to everything that could have given them a bit more time if actually serving it's purpose - getting across one's intent or elevating one's understanding.

And I say "time" loosely because no matter how I think the ending is the only ending plausible and possible. The love is dirty, obsessed, never enough, this doesn't compare to getting mad at "your" lady for conversing with a passing ice-cream salesmen. And thank god because this is so much better. He can't ever BE close enough, his whole life is her....and if your whole life IS somebody, and you're not that person...you're going to have one really shit life. And that's it. That's it in a nut. When she ends, he ends. And because he can't ever be fully immersed in "his" (read: her) life....it's not going to last long, the 'life' that is.

But still.....if I had to pick from all the love stories I've ever hear I wouldn't blink twice. I would like to have something of this caliber. Because I do feel it's so much more beautiful, lovely, dirty, and humiliating, then anything I've read or seen. And in the end it's Right. Why tote "love" as being "everything there is to life" and "he/she completes me", when one can't face what their asking for. You can't have something so "big and omniscient" as you desire and not go mad. And I love it. I love that drama. I could participate in these "fight-club" bouts till my nail chips (....maybe) and be happy.

Damn I wrote too much! Belleza...I'm sorry. I got enethusiastic with that womb bit. Too much coffee? Ah yes! I saw that clip! Let the infamous scenes live on and on! (SO CUTE)

"And our language doesn’t quite fit with what we need to use to describe him because what we are asked to see as ‘love’ is not the degradation of humanity but it’s upliftment (see degradation as empowerment: ‘Atlas Shrugged’ mutually desired “rape”) It’s dirty. That level of need. "

jones, bellezza, i hear ya'll-- not to exalt or suggest that jo in sung's character's actions in WHIB were anything less than a dance between petty and abusive... but GOD if that character wasn't compelling! the really twisty part for me wasn't all the damn dirt, greyness, murkiness of it all, but that fact that somewhere in there, i really believed that the love was present. and at first, being younger than i am now, i couldn't reconcile how such a dirty, abusive kind of relationship could be said to contain any such love, and i didn't know why i believed such a small, misguided man could be giving her love. but i guess.. even if it wasn't the kind of love you dream about, he gave her all he KNEW of love, and in that way, gave her all of HIM, essentially. and she falls for the earnestness and fullness of his offering, even though all it was was broken, sad, possessive and incomplete.
because the earnestness is charming, the fullness is enticing. it makes for moments when we're led astray into thinking... this is all we need: good intentions.

but as bellezza said--- "The ferocity of Jo In Sung’s Oedipal tantrums belies this uncomfortably compelling sense that Jo In Sung doesn’t want to merely make love to Ha Ji Won, he wants to be inside her womb, as if she could give him a soul that he realizes he never had. His love is childish AND vampyric, anguished and all-consuming."

and when you realize this, and you figure that through a fight like that, he had a girl in love with him as well, teaching him what love should be and could be instead of this sick twisted vampiric way he goes about it, and the WANT IT, they want it to work out so much. the love IS there, and it had no chance at all of survival.... that makes you so invested in that dark moment he takes all of their lives. like jones said, i can see no alternate ending for this, but the kid in you.. the romantic inside you, the noona, the mother (everything jo in sung wanted you to be for his character).... that was who was screaming, "NOOOO! NOOOOOOOOO!" when that 3rd bullet was fired.

--------------------
could i segue that i really miss these grittier takes on life that past dramas actually had the nerve to show? noona-killer stuff that would literally KILL, and that noonas all over the world now don't even know exist. maybe this was why i was pro-bed scene in that infamous secret garden ep 13 debacle, because I HATED HATED HATED the thought of any man dragging a girl into bed and forcing himself on her (even for just cuddles) BUUUUUUUUUT we were supposed to hate it!!!! not exalt it! it was meant to be so freaking wrong! joo won bwas just behaving CONSISTENTLY as his character, and as a character dimension, and as a thematic point (of how children love in childish ways, and we see the female character learning to love him in spite of it as a woman, and because of it as a mother and noona) we'd seen it before. in such a coked-up way... that i couldn't believe that people forgot THAT THIS WAS A MOVEMENT IN THE STORY, inasmuch as it was a moral point.

aaaaanywaaaay. told ya'll not to get me started on WHIB. :P I LOVED LETTING THIS ALL OUT! THANK YOU!

Over at D-addicts, some of us were having a nice discussion about What Happened in Bali.

http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopic_16088_90.htm

Now onto this one . . .

"I had no idea Fight-Club-esque bouts of WHIB exaltation broke out in said forum…I feel ashamed."

Conversations between me, Ockoala, and Mookie would veer randomly into WHiB discussions (and one of the few shows we all equivocally agree on.) Sure, it would make sense when talking about Noona Killers/Love, but just about any K-drama related topic could become a WHiB discussion. And WHiB discussions always end up like THIS too. :D

I think it's largely about rationalizing something none of us want to personally explore. We all felt dirty watching Bali. Yet, we felt liberated too.

"Firstly, I thought there was a poll and Chun Jung Myung won? "

When they did the Netizen poll, it came out Jo In Sung, Kang Dong Won, Lee Dong Gun, Jang Hyuk, and Binnie, in that order. Im Joo Hwan and Choi Si Won were most popular picks for Ji Hoo.

"The point: he’s raw flesh and blood, so dirty and so imperfect, and so much, much, greater then any level of ridiculous that dares to include the words “Prince” and “First Love” in their titles."

Agreed. His character is ENTIRELY substantiated by his extreme need for Ha Ji Won's character. K-drama's enabling "Chaebol Prince" privilege is brutally subverted to only expose Jae-min's his personal limitations. It is as if Jae-min says "if you don't like me because I'm rich and hot. aww crap, I'm worthless, aren't I?" and it goes downhill from there for him.

Sigh. Poor boy. He just wasn't equipped to have human emotions. He just started functioning. :D

I'll continue onto other points tomorrow . . . might as well make this The WHiB Thread Evar :D

Oooh...Belleza...a place everyone just talks about WHiB? All the time. I think I'll stop by if I have time (read: Yayayay!)

Maria, I love all the points you bring up. I completely think you're spot on with all the negative, anti-hero, traits being boldly (and confidently) thrown at the viewer along with this progression into pure need. I love how the show presents you with this bundle of sins and Garden-of-Eden-Reject qualities and then basically says, "This is love."

Unlike all the princes and ridiculous Chaebol cliches who begin perfect and seem to have some negative traits written in just to KEEP them human Jung Jae Min starts out with faults, collects more, and falls into this "divine" love (that people preach as some sort of redemption from life) and proceeds to sink in faults. It's like a mini-anthem to our humanity.

Why seek to escape from what we are when what he is presenting is actually the opposite - to use a metaphor - the only way to "be" is not to try to get back to Eden while hiding these natural imperfections, but rather, walk so far away that Eden and it's preachings of "ignorace is bliss" and "purity" no longer apply. And as I said, dare someone say his love is not, in it's own way, pure. A dirty pure. A human pure.

There's this one amazing scene a bit later in the drama (before marriage, post obsession, pre-sex) where he's talking with his fiance over coffee, staring out the window, after his future mother-in-law has confronted him about "keeping" a girl.

Fiance - Do you know how many people you've hurt? (Smiles) Did you think we wouldn't know if you hid her somewhere? (Smiles) And what about her life? (pause) Do you love her or something?

And that moment right there is the first time in her five minute dialogue that he actually looks at her - and a small "I pity you" smile flashes across his lips. As if that question itself is so ridiculous that it's laughable. And at the end I think that's one thing the drama never leaves you doubting - that it IS love, and if you actually pose such a ridiculous question that's the answer you deserve for your own choice at ignorant bliss and expectancy of what "love" should be.

Belleza!

I love this bit!

Agreed. His character is ENTIRELY substantiated by his extreme need for Ha Ji Won’s character. K-drama’s enabling “Chaebol Prince” privilege is brutally subverted to only expose Jae-min’s his personal limitations. It is as if Jae-min says “if you don’t like me because I’m rich and hot. aww crap, I’m worthless, aren’t I?” and it goes downhill from there for him.

- You

They did such a fantastic job of making him original "cliche". I mean they REALLY did a great job. He's the classic Chaebol whose (one among many) faults is throwing money at our heroine. Multiple times.

I never realized but that seems to be THE consistent act in a swift monetary climb. First it's a couple hundred to sleep with him in Bali, then it's a carte-blanche at the hostess bar with a "how much do you charge for a night?" Followed by the loan of 30,000 with the thought that she WILL offer, at least, to sleep with him in return for the funding. We then have him throwing her million won notes at the gallery, apartment and clothes, the gold card, and then the post-sex 100,000 dollars.

You'd think somewhere he would change tactics but he's physically incapable of realizing there's more ways to "have" something then by throwing money at it. He's so into the hegemony he can't see outside it. And it drives him a bit mad.

(Do you notice how while you know they own a "mall" and money is constantly traded around, the actual company he is the future owner of doesn't actually have a set description. It's extremely vague. And it doesn't matter. It's MONEY and these documents floating around and these presentations don't MEAN anything except "here is money" and "he owns it" Because to his character it couldn't matter less (and thank god because: "to me either") what they were the company of - and in the end the drama isn't focusing on "Ah! Tourism!" or "Look, they make dramas!" but focusing on "Money.")

I love what you said about the Noona-complex. I really do. Because he is a little boy. One with alcohol and power and who fears almost literal spanking. I mean...that's why he's reluctant for so many things at the beginning. Yes he will lose power, family, friends, lifestyle, and money, but he get's far beyond those those with his need for "her" But when it comes to changing his mind it's beatings. He get's beaten and that always puts him back to submission. So Ji Sub's character even scoffs at Jung Jae Min's "You don't know what I had to go through! [to get this far with her]"

Reply: "So they beat you a bit. So what?"

He's a child with the slobber on the work documents and the constant "baby" title from his mother; but on a more serious aspect, he's afraid of physical pain which is in tune with his love and experiences for Her making him into a "man" He's both progressing and stunted which leads to the rather insightful relationship where he comes so close to having her "physical" self so many times (that immediate need) but is completely aware that it means nothing at all if he can't have her not-physical-self (which can be "beaten" literally - like his IS). He needs to have her everything. And it's so beautiful that he realizes it's not even a "temporary solution" to have her body. He really does need that much more - and he won't settle for having them separate (well, until close to the end, that is.)

Thank you guys so much for having this conversation with me! It's so nice to talk with people who love it so much! I get really happy when I see your postings!

Ah, I just realized something. If we do take this "his beatings/physical violence done to him, are one of the most significant parts of his character and decision making process" then him killing SJS and her is a very nice example of the extreme version.

"I must punish them for their wrongs" - and what he knows of punishment is his families beatings - therefore physically killing someone (and then accidently taking that violence to the next person) is a fantastic consistency in his character.

*Sigh* I love how much "sense" this drama makes. It welcomes you to think more