@47, Belleza,

You are too wise, too knowledgeable. I feel undressed by your cutlery! Instead of dooboo, I'm going to be standing at mental hospital gate, waiting for your release with a bag of dduk.

I want to respond in depth to Tippy and Samsooki and a couple of others, but OMG, my brain is completely fried after a long day of work (CAN SOMEONE HOOK ME UP WITH A RICH MAN PLEASE? I don't care what he looks like -- please let him look like Kim Kang-woo -- I just need him to be rich and willing to pay my expenses).

OKThnxBai

I don't know what it is about CBS but most of their dramas make me drowsy. CSI is okay (the original, not the eye-roll inducing Miami spin-off) and I guess Criminal Minds does have its merits at times but the other shows on that network are just lame. I wish Daniel Henney all the best but I think that I will most likely miss the show because of the uninspired synopsis and the network's history of choosing shows that I don't like.

@Samsooki and belleza
LMAO...you two are a riot :)

On the topic of Daniel Henney...I'm glad he's getting the chance to be on the pilot (and if the pilot does get picked up, even better), but I agree there are better Asian American actors out there. It is frustrating about the lack of Asian American actors on television, especially Asian American males. Though I am glad there has been some significant increase in South Asian actors, especially on medical dramas (I mean with 1 out of 4 or 5 doctors in the US are of SA descent---)

On Tim Kang---he's a cutie :) I'm glad he's on the Mentalist...oh and that Simon Baker is too :)

@ Tippy -

As for the other side of coin, we can talk when Korea, Japan, etc. get a significant pop. of European, African or whatever-Koreans, etc.

As for the representation of Asian-Ams in the US, I'd rather have zero than the lop-sided representation that we have, where Asian-Am females are significantly more represented in the media (Hollywood/Madison Ave.) than AA males (the only group where females are more represented than the males are Asians in the US).

@ belleza

"but I also think Asian Americans kinda overestimate how “hot” he is to, well, a population that probably thinks all white people look alike. Shrug."

- Huh?

Uhh, living in a white-dominated society, Asian-Americans are generally no different than whites in judging the attractiveness of whites.

As for DH, while he is a good-looking guy, he doesn't hold a candle to Korean actors like Kim Sung Soo and Oh Ji Ho. And others like Jo Han Sun, Yoo Gun and Joo Jin Mo would give him a run for the $$.

Speaking of Sandra Oh's character on "Grey's" and Ming-Na's character on "ER" (Ming-Na also starred as the short-lived medical drama "Inconceivable"), as well as Parminder Nagra's character on "ER" - they all had non-Asian love interests.

In fact, for both Sandra Oh and Ming-Na (as well as Asian-American/Canadian actresses of note such as Lucy Lui, Grace Park, Kelly Hu, etc.) - pretty much all of their roles w/ love interests consisted of being partnered w/ a non-Asian male character.

You don't even get to see an Asian male father figure (the mother of Sandra Oh's character on Grey's was remarried to a Jewish guy).

@ sere

"Anyway, took me forever but I found one character who’s Asian-American and a doctor. B.D. Wong played a psychiatrist on Law&Order:SVU. That’s not much, but it’s an example. Which I think is amazing. I recall watching one of his interviews in which he talked about growing up as Asian-American, a gay man on top of that, and also about the stereotypes we’ve been discussing here. I gotta find that interview."

- Otoh, BD Wong's character on SVU is totally ASEXUAL - unlike for the other characters, there is no mention ever of his character ever being in any sort of relationship.

And in that interview, Wong stated that growing up, he had more problems/issues w/ his self-esteem in being an Asian male than he had w/ being gay.

How messed up is that?

@ belleza

"Also worth mentioning that Asian Americans don’t actually have it that bad in the bigger scheme of things. If you’re of Middle Eastern descent, it must suck that every other character is a terrorist, a terrorist wannabe, or just really good with bombs."

- Actually, Hollywood, for the most part, has stopped portraying Middle Easterners as terrorists and when they do (pretty much only on "24"), they try to mitigate such portrayal by having "good guy" Middle Eastern characters.

On "24" - there have been 2 different seasons where Arab males were shown dating/marrying the "All American" blonde and on "Lost" Sayid had a romance w/ another blonde while the writers originally were going to have Sun (Yunjin Kim) leave her husband for the black male character.

Already that's more times than network TV has shown an Asian-American male w/ a WF, much less an AF.

@ meiko

"mmmm…… Daniel H looks more like an american than asian, doesnt he? yeah, Very Clark Kent-ish even without the glasses. "

By "American" do you mean Native-American, African-American or other?

And DH really looks no more "American" than Korean actors like Kim Sung Soo, Oh Ji Ho and others.

@ Jessica -

I don't feel like I'm being targeted at all...I enjoy the debate and this type of forum always allows for an oppourtunity to learn something new, or see something from another viewpoint!

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I'm not referring to American films/programs that are being shown in Asia...those don't count as those programs are essentially imports. I mean local Korean/Japanese productions...written by, directed by and paid for by Asian film companies.

Language skills aside, I'm not entirely convinced that a non-Asian actor would be cast in a leading role in a local production in Korea or Japan...which would then make the non-Asian residents of said countries feel under-represented there.

Does that make sense?? I don't want to seem obtuse or insensitive in any way...it's just that I watch Asian films/dramas (hence my daily addiction to this site) and find that I don't really see anyone of any other ethic groups represented in those productions either.

As for Hollywood, I do agree with hjkomo...I think the 'facial' landscape is changing, slowly, very slowly, but surely...

AHA!! SAMSOOKI!!!

I just remembered a good looking, smexy MALE ASIAN DOCTOR role!!!!

Jack Yang (*squeal*) played a doctor that was wooing Lucy Lui on Cashmere Mafia! Oooh, oooh...and he played a BRAIN SURGEON to boot!

Sad that it's only one example, but an example it is!!

I don't really want to see yet another hospital/doctor/medical drama on tv, but as long as there's some nice eye-candy why should I complain? ;D

And I liked Moonlight ... helluva lot better than Ghost Whisperer ...

@bd

Totally off topic, and I'm not trying to make a big deal out of anything, but I don't think there really is any attempt in Hollywood to portray Middle Easterner's as "good guys". The portrayal of Middle Easterners (especially recently) in the media hasn't been able to escape the age-old stereotypes of "exotic" or "terrorist". Every Arab shown on television is either gun-slinging or wearing a bellydance costume. And Sayid from Lost is just the same old horrible ignorance and stereotyping wrapped in a new shiny wrapper. An Iraqi torture specialist? Often prone to violent outbursts and kills and maims as easily as others breathe? If that's the best Hollywood can do, save me from the worst -_-;

So yea, sorry about the mini-completely-unrelated rant, just couldn't help myself :)

i watched him only once in "my father". he's angsty, yes. he can cry, yes. but no emotional connection, sorry. i cried when the father cried.

Ok, this seems like an open thread for some reason. I love it and all of you guys.

@Samsooki and Belleza
Yo, the fanclub is mine. I'm already designing the tshirts and badges. Samsooki, no need to worry about organizing fanmeetings -but bonus points if you grace us with a song or a concert à la Lee Junki!- and stuff like that. I volunteer! ^_^

Side note: you guys are awesome! *g*

@Belleza

"Also worth mentioning that Asian Americans don’t actually have it that bad in the bigger scheme of things. If you’re of Middle Eastern descent, it must suck that every other character is a terrorist, a terrorist wannabe, or just really good with bombs."
Word! Cultural stereotypes will NEVER end. I don't even remember how many movies/tvshows/reality shows/whatever depicted Italians as Mafia gangsters, pizza/pasta eaters, mummy's boys and generally rude loud uneducated people. It's quite frankly offensive, but it'll never change. Should we get used to it? Of course not, but what I mean to say is, you're right and it's a sad, sad reality.

@
"Otoh, BD Wong’s character on SVU is totally ASEXUAL - unlike for the other characters, there is no mention ever of his character ever being in any sort of relationship."

Ah yes, I was just looking for a Asian-American fictional doctor. It didn't even cross my mind to add the "sexual" aspect in my search. It was already VERY difficult to find that character as it is...had I included "sexyness" or "sexuality" it would've been impossible to find one. Samsooki already pointed out how Asians and Asian-Americans are generally seen in one of his previous comments (here? In an older Open thread? Ack, my memory is acting up agian).

"And in that interview, Wong stated that growing up, he had more problems/issues w/ his self-esteem in being an Asian male than he had w/ being gay."

Ok, I may have misinterpreted, but I thought he said he had problems growing up with both of his identities: as an Asian-American and as a gay man. I didn't hear him saying he had more problems with one or the other...but I may be wrong.

I think the Hollywood landscape when it comes to Asian Male and Female actors in leading roles is definitely changing....though very slowly. If and when they cast an Asian Male actor in a sexy and smart leading role, I will be sure to watch...I don't remember who said it but an FBI agent would be nice.

Thank you for the tip on Tim Kang in 'The Mentalist'. I'm going to try to catch it next week.

@Samsooki
You write some great stuff. I always enjoy the thoughts you put into them. I too wish more talented Asian actors could break into Hollywood though in most cases, maybe the language barrier (fluency, accent etc) is what's holding it back?

You will be hard pressed to actually find an Arab (Middle Eastern) actor in Hollywood actually. Good luck trying to find an actors of Muslim descent (Aasif Mandvi of the Daily Show is the only one I can think of--but he isn't Arab). I started boycotting Hollywood years ago and I don't own a TV anymore so I don't know if things have changed, but knowing Hollywood and how deeply ingrained it is in its own culture, I doubt it. I wish federal laws of equal employment opportunity were enforced in Hollywood b/c it is shocking what they get away with. It is one of the only institutions in America which still gets away with shocking stereotypes and racism.

@Sere "but it’ll never change."
I think it might if people feel comfortable raising the issue, so it is great that we are all talking. Money defines Hollywood so if people stop funding the lousy products, things will change, I think. I remember once mentioning to a friend after yet another ridiculous Seth Rogan movie came out that even though Jews and Asians are a similar demographic in terms of numbers in America (5%), Hollywood representation is widely skewed with comedians, actors, etc., of Jewish descent making over 60% of the representation while Asians make up a negligible amount (no leads, except for rarities like Harold and Kumar) and Arab Muslims almost zero. Of course my friend refused to engage with the topic because it started to go into uncomfortable area of politics for her. Hollywood is VERY political.

Oh and to some who asked why Asians are not represented much, a lot may have to do with the intensity of the fear of Communism, the second WW (Japan-- the only country to have a nuclear attack on it), the Korean War, the Vietnam war, etc. I don't think people realize with the end of the Cold War just how high the fear of Communism is in America. Because of America's tendency to conflate regions, Asians are pretty much lumped together as "Chinese" and there is a tremendous amount of fear and hatred of China to this day. Imagine what that hatred was like in the 1950s-70s (the height of Communism, with post-imperial Japan, a communist Vietnam, North Korea, Laos, Cambodia). So to counter the fear of that scary world, that world is made impotent. Asian men are actively silenced or their male identity destroyed by portraying them as asexual or effeminate and by having the Asian women on the arms of White men (as the more virile one) .

Seriously, Hollywood is sick.

@62 yvhsien -

"I too wish more talented Asian actors could break into Hollywood though in most cases, maybe the language barrier (fluency, accent etc) is what’s holding it back?"

No, it's not a language barrier. The fact is that the culture and thinking of the mainstream has to change. And it will change, but in the meantime, you have thousands and thousands of Asian American guys who have grown up in this country with complexes about their own masculinity.

Meanwhile, asian-american guys generally have grown up in insular households, with a rigid caste system and patriarchal governance. It makes for a difficult childhood, disciplined with frequent beatings and indoctrination into a conservative culture that has long since evolved in the respective motherlands outside of the US.

it makes for a difficult life trying to mature ---> mainstream america tells us that we are model minorities, asexual though we might be. Our anachronistic cultural upbringing from our close-knit households, on the other hand, give us no workable framework for social interaction with the modern asian-american female, much less the non-asian female.

We grow up with nothing to fall back on. Our dads are our most potent early influence in our lives, but that influence helps us not at all, to deal with women of our generation. And mainstream culture indirectly tells us that we aren't really desireable as men anyway. Makes for a messed up time around puberty and beyond, I'll tell you what. LOL.

But, I think times are changing. And certainly, with respect to my own life, with my recent reflections and change in attitude, I'm much more balanced, happier and stable now than ever before, and I even sport a gentle Binnie smirk on my face most of the time.

Sometimes it's important to look behind you to see how far you've come...

I just remembered about the portrayal of the 'Asian' fellow in 'Breakfast at Tiffany's'...

Mickey Rooney (not sure when he became an Asian dude) played the Asian man of seemingly non-descript decent (maybe they were trying for Japanese)...look for it at about 3:00 in the following clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOWd95vInHI&feature=related

Pathetic, but it does show that things have begun to change and have changed!

@63 Nom Kitteh
"I think it might if people feel comfortable raising the issue, so it is great that we are all talking. "

You're absolutely right. I was seeing things a bit dark the other day. I'm usually not like that.

@Tippy -

"Language skills aside, I’m not entirely convinced that a non-Asian actor would be cast in a leading role in a local production in Korea or Japan…which would then make the non-Asian residents of said countries feel under-represented there."
------------------------------

Again, it's not the same thing.

How many whites or blacks were born and grew up in Korea and Japan and are Korean and Japanese citizens?

Pretty much all the foreigners in Korea and Japan are expats and are in Japan temporarily (the exception would be Zainichi Koreans and they usually have to hide their Korean heritage in Japan to make it in the Japanese entertainment industry).

Aside from ESL teachers, GIs and businessmen/women - there really isn't much diversity in the characters non-Asians would be able to play - that's why the whites cast in Korean films are either set in the US (D-Wars) or have roles as ESL teachers (Please Teach Me English).

As for the Jack Yang character on "Cashmere Mafia" - while it was "revolutionary" in that it showed an Asian-American male and Asian-American female as love interests (or should I say potential love interests; pretty sad when it is revolutionary in 2008) on a network show, Jack Yang's and Lucy Liu's characters really never "got it on" on the show and Liu's character ended up having a couple of liasons w/ some WMs (also both their characters admitted that they really didn't date Asian and that they normally dated white).

And I didn't say that Arabs were now being shown as "good guys" - just that Hollywood has pretty much shut down the portrayal of Arabs as terrorists (when was the last time you saw Arab terrorists as the "bad guys" in a Hollywood film?) and that the few times that they do so (usually on TV shows), they do try to mitigate the negative portrayals w/ "good guys" (such as an Arab anti-terrorist agent or a good-looking Arab-American male marrying the "All-American girl" on "24").

As for Sayid on "Lost" - yeah, he was an interrogator for the Iraqi National Guard, but that was more due to circumstance and he clearly isn't depicted on the show as a "bad guy."

Also, my point was largely that Arab male characters aren't asexualized as Asian male characters are.

Not only are Arab females primarily portrayed w/ Arab males (the few times they are depicted in the media), unlike AFs where they are primarily depicted w/ WMs (heck, BMs are more commonly depicted w/ AFs than AMs and in reality that is a rare combination), there have been MORE portrayals of Arab males w/ white "All-American girls" than there have of Asian-American couples.

Whether AMs are depicted as geeks/nerds, the Asian gangster or evil Communist - they are all pretty much depicted as being asexual.

"Sometimes it’s important to look behind you to see how far you’ve come…

I just remembered about the portrayal of the ‘Asian’ fellow in ‘Breakfast at Tiffany’s’…

Mickey Rooney (not sure when he became an Asian dude) played the Asian man of seemingly non-descript decent (maybe they were trying for Japanese)…look for it at about 3:00 in the following clip…"

------------------

No doubt thing are improving, albeit slowly.

However, things are significantly better for Asian females than males.

AFs not only get cast more frequently for shows and films (Asians are the only group in Hollywood where the females get more work than the males), but they actually get depicted as having romantic lives (pretty much always w/ a non-Asian male) and they are also significantly more represented in advertising/commercials as well as network/local news.

AFs are way overrepresented in advertisments/commercials and when they are depicted w/ a partner - they are usually depicted w/ a WM (almost always if the actors are younger).

For products geared to women - clothing, cosmetics, shampoo, feminine hygiene products, contraception, etc. - AFs are commonly represented in advertisements.

Otoh, you almost never see AMs depicted in advertisements for male products - deodorant, shaving products, clothing, cologne, etc.

And take a look at the news anchor chair - AFs abound on both network and local news, otoh, you'd be hard pressed to find an AM anchor.

And as for the "yellow-face" character done by Mickey Rooney - we still see the same thing today - both Eddie Murphy and Rob Schneider have done it recently and we still see the Long Duk Dong (the "Donger") characters frequently as well in films like "Alfie."

In addition, the portrayal of gay men in the media have seen much more advancement than that of AMs (it's not uncommon to now see portrayals of attractive, successful gay men w/ romantic lives on TV shows; you'd be hard pressed to find one for AMs).

@69, bd:

Your comments are spot-on.

It's funny (sad, but funny) that whenever I DO see an asian guy on television, be it a commercial or a tv how, I almost freak out (because it happens so rarely) and I pay really close attention:

1. what is he wearing (is he portrayed as being cool or as a nerd)
2. is there a white authority figure nearby to order around the asian male
3. is the asian male just background noise or is he there for a reason
4. does the asian guy speak with an accent...
5. is the asian guy portrayed as being a "guy" or as being a neutered person.

***

Note, I'm NOT blaming Hollywood (well, not 100% blame) for the lack of representation and the bias that is inherent in the portrayal of the asian male in America. They follow cultural trends and political correctness as quickly as any institution, so they are merely reflecting society.

This is about changing the mainstream thinking, and that takes time. In the meantime, I just hope that asian guys who grew up here are able to recognize the bias and adjust their own self-esteem and identities to match who they are, and not accept what the mainstream says. Easier said than done, but it is possible.

@bd
I agree with Samsooki - great observation

@Samsooki
Despite what Hollywood thinks or feels about AM, there are some very attractive (sexy and good-looking) AM out there - Asian-American males included. I too would like to see more AM in American print ads.

I was just thinking - maybe their view may change if there's actually an AM supermodel. Are there any? There are several AF supermodels that grace the runways. I wonder if that helped the AF break-through in Hollywood. You know, since supermodels are supposed to epitomize beauty.

@71, yvhsien -

The ones that I know are Tyson Beckford (although he is claimed by African Americans, sort of like the way that Tiger Woods is also claimed by African Americns) and Brent Chua.

I don't know any others who have the -American as part of their identity. Like, I'd like to say that Rojam was Chinese American, but I don't think he spends any time in the US, and certainly, he's nowhere to be found in American mainstream media.

Another AHA moment!!

Ken Watanabe! He's pretty mainstream Hollywood and he is directly from Japan!

I can't think of any Asian male supermodels though, but to be honest, I'm hard pressed to name any male models...they just don't have the same high profiles as the women in general.

*sigh*

Grrreeeeeaaaaat....

After reading all the comments about how white women don't find Asian men to be sexy...I FEEL LIKE SUCH A FREAK!!!!!!!

I've always found asian and Native American men to be extremely sexy.

Who knew no other white woman finds them sexy?!?!

Oh well, more for me!

;~D

@ Tippy

I wouldn't exactly consider Watanabe to be "mainstream Hollywood" - he's pretty much regulated to "exotic" roles as a foreigner (pretty much Japanese roles).

What I and others are talking about is the dearth of portrayals of Asian-AMERICAN males (as just "regular" guys in American society).

Foreign actors like Watanabe, Jackie Chang, Jet Li, Chow Yan Fat, etc. just reinforce the "perpetual foreigner" stereotype and Asian-Americans don't really relate to them (just as black Americans wouldn't relate to the portrayal of blacks in the media if they were primarily of foreign blacks from Africa).

Heck, even Asian-American male actors have a tough time getting roles as Americans - most have ended up playing some foreign bad guy (enemy soldier, Asian gang member, martial artist, etc.).

The two most high profile roles which have gone to Asian-Am male actors consist of playing foreigners on "Lost" and
"Heroes" (both Daniel Dae Kim and Masi Oka had to endure Hollywood execs, producers, agents, etc. thinking that they were foreign actors and didn't really speak English as they made the rounds of parties in LA; not that diff. from when director John Hughes thought that Gedde Watanabe was Japanese and didn't speak English during the filming of "Sixteen Candles").

And as for the whole Arabs are terrorists thing - while Hollywood has largely stopped doing that (in a no. of recent films, the bad guys were changed from Arab terrorists to a different type of bad guy) - keep in mind that the Arab terrorists were FOREIGNERS and that Asian males have been and continue to be portrayed as the "evil" foreigners.

Go back to all the films about WWII, the Korean War or Vietnam (or after Vietnam such as the Rambo films).

3 or 4 of the Bond films have Asians as the bad guys (even recent ones like "Die Another Day"), the Asian male abuses AFs until she is rescued by the WM hero has long been a staple (see films like "The Transporter") and Hollywood is still making films set in the jungles of SE Asia where the "good guys" end up killing rows and rows of "little Asian men" (speaking of "little Asian men"; it's hardly surprising that the Asian male character in "Ocean's Eleven" was a tiny, 95 lb Chinese guy who could barely speak English).

"The Departed", which was a remake of the HK film "Infernal Affairs" didn't have any good guys Asian-Am male characters (there are AA male cops and FBI agents, you know) and yet, the film had the Chinese Triad gang members (w/ Jack Nicholson's character making the requisite penis-size jokes).

What I and others are talking about are Asian-American male actors playing Asian Am male roles - foreign actors or foreigner roles do little to break the stereotypes and instead, actually reinforce a no. of them.

As for the modeling industry, Asian-Am female models are WAY more represented on the catwalks, print adverisements, commercials and billboards than Asian-Am male models.

In fact, during the past few years of shows during Fashion Week in NYC, there were about DOUBLE the nos. of AF models to black female models (in comparison to their % of the pop., AFs tend to be OVER-represented in the media).

Comments by Samsooki and BD (esp. #9, #69, and #75) are very thought-provoking. Thanks for writing.

I absolutely agree with TD regarding typical Asian male stereotypes in American films and TV. That will take time to overcome, and so long as Asians and Asian Americans are not in the positions of power to make filming and acting decisions, the bad choices will continue.

However, Bad acting, good acting, Asian, half Asian, half White, does it really matter. I am extremely proud of the class act that is Daniel Henney. Before we jump down his throat regarding his acting skills, let's first remember that he started as a model. It's a new endeavor for him and maybe he lacks the natural, inherent skills of a Mr. Brando. However, are most of us excellent at what we want to do from the start? I see continued improvements in his acting from Kim Sam Soon , Mr. Perfect and now to Wolverine. Yes, none of his performances were Oscar worthy but so what? It's a good thing that a kind, decent person like Daniel is representing the Asian Americans, not to mention extremely sexy and good looking. Can we just be happy for him and wish him much success? Hollywood is hard enough without us tearing him apart. I hope that we can all stand behind him and other Asian American actors/actresses and support them through their successes and failures.

Correction, BD, typo :)

daniel henney is a great actor.

an actor takes on a role and makes it his own..
thats exactly what he does!
he always adds his style into his roles.

I really can’t wait for this show to come out! I just saw a promo video set to “Swim” by Jack’s Mannequin (a fantastic song). This really looks like an interesting concept for a show, and I loved Alex O’Laughlin in Moonlight, so I just know this will be great. The promo video is on YouTube at : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eJrY4HiLZM