Interesting editorial javabeans. You know it's a great post when it sparked this type of a response. It's ironic that we are passionately discussing the "glass ceiling" phenomenon in a year where we are entertaining the reality of a non-white-male-non-Protestant presidential candidate. Albeit it's a non-Asian candidate... but nevertheless a significant coincidence.

I think the above heated comments underline the pervasive frustration many Asian Americans have internalized regarding our lack of representation in other areas besides the entertainment industry. I do agree with Dreamer that Asian Americans have failed to form a cohesive voice in the community. It's the lack of banded brotherhood that have prevented us from making a voiceful presence in a country in which many of us are highly regarded, educated and respected.

But i completely agree with javabeans in her comments regarding Rain's inferior English skills. I totally give him credit for his bravado, ambition and effort. That is never a bad thing. However, the criticism here is about his poor preparation and limited understanding about the underlying mentality of the US entertainment culture. His ignorance of these basic facts speaks poorly for him as a person, let alone an entertainer. To not come even armed with elementary English is insulting to other Asians (or Asian-Americans) who are trying to break into the entertainment business. Rain's effort may not break any Hollywood's glass ceiling; but may in contrast, support their false misconceptions of Asian Americans. Those which javabeans aptly mentioned above. I agree- success in the entertainment industry is equal part flash, substance and luck. Though was never a fan, I do wish Rain lots of luck in his quest. I also hope Rain realizes that a healthy dose of reality and humility DO soften the fall, even for the mightiest among us. And failure should not be disregarded but learned from.

@hjk: "are u chinese or japanese?" .... same here. Sadly, still gets the same question asked up till now!

javabeans... another well written post... i must say that you took the exact words out of my head of what i think of Rain's "quest" in hollywood... i completey agree with everything you said...

Also... i know that this might sound soooo nationalistic of me but honestly why the need to succeed in hollywood? isn't his stardom in his own country, or in asia if i might add, enough? caause i personally think it is... i mean... his hollywood quest is just too farfetched for me and if years of striving towards that "quest" have already proven really futile for quite a long time now, why the need to squish yourself into the world that does not take you in... its just for me sooo pathetic... sooo wannabe... why not do your crafts in the place which accepts and appreciates your efforts warmly... it doesnt make you any less of an artist...

moreover... really what's the big deal of thinking that making it to the US is making it big... i dont think so... hello people... the country is going through its recession... its on its way down.... hahahaha no offense meant peace

Thanks, dramabeans

A well written and objective post = )

I have to agree with you, America is a very tough market, even for American artists to reach mainstream status. I wish him luck in his endeavours, along with Se7en and BoA who want to cross over.

I was trying to imagine a dance off between him & Justin Timberlake. I think they should have Usher join in too.

se7en and boa have a better chance at crossing over because they aren't spreading themselves out too thin doing stuff that they aren't really ready for....like acting. Se7en learned his lesson and now he's just focusing on what made him famous in the first place....dance & music. Bi is trying to do too much, but if he just focuses on acting (which he's not bad at) and nothing else...he should have a few gigs before he leaves for the Army. He'll find work but he won't make any major impact on the US market...because there's nothing for him to make a huge impact on. He's not like Michael Jackson where people will witness something never seen before.....he'll just be there. I actually don't understand his urgency to enter America anymore unless he just wants to be in Hollywood films...and if that's the case, he'll achieve that. However, it would be a complete surprise if he gets enough of a following to actually be considered a success here.

I'd soon watch a film with Leonardo Nam, Grace Park, and Sung Kang before I go see a movie with Bi simply because he's in it.

p.s. I do hope Pharrell gets to work with Boa...that would be an interesting sight to see.

@tealeaf - Luckily that was only for 3 years of my early childhood when I lived in an all-white area (which is now filled with Asians), before I moved to a more diverse city (which is now filled with Koreans). It IS really irritating to get the ignorant "r u Chinese or Japanese" question (I haven't gotten it in a really long time, and even now, I usually only get other asians asking which ethnicity I am merely out of curiousity). It's like asking a French person, "Are you German or English? [...because I'm an idiot who doesn't know world history or anything that pertains to life outside my tiny bubble]."

@#17 ter,
Yeah, that was the first thing that I noticed about Sandra Oh in Grey's Anatomy - just a female doctor with emotional issues who makes me laugh hysterically, not the 'token' Asian on the show. I thought the same thing with Daniel Dae Kim in Angel and Grace Park in Battlestar Galactica.

Last year sometime, I noticed that there was a slew of commercials (in the Bay Area -- maybe to cater towards the demographic?) that aired within the same few weeks with mixed Asian/Caucasian couples. There was a car commercial and a healthcare commercial, and I can't remember the rest. But they were done in such a 'matter-of-fact' way. I had to applaud the advertisers ability to relflect the real world. You still don't see many mixed African-American/Caucasian commercials, even though there are many mixed families living in the U.S., but maybe that's because of the possible backlash from African-American community (? I don't know).

@#34 Kess, what a cool clip on James Shigeta.

hjk,

Actually...I have a problem with those commercials because they would have an Asian female with Caucasian male. It rarely shows an Asian female with an Asian male....like as if it's not acceptable for normal for it's white consumers. I found it annoying.

When I was little (six years old or so), I used to want to ask any Asian person I saw if they were Chinese or Japanese (I probably picked it up from television), but I didn't know any better. Once Mom told me it was rude to ask and that it would probably offend them, I stopped. When I started learning about geography, I figured out that there were more than just Chinese and Japanese people out there! I felt really stupid for ever wanting to ask anyone that question.

Anyway! Java, I agree with you about Bi needing to know English. As much as I'd love to see him succeed, it's not gonna happen unless he becomes more fluent. He probably won't be taken seriously if he doesn't. In fact, if he doesn't polish up his English, he'll most likely become a subject for the asshats that live here to mock, if anything.

To go off on a tangent... America's full of people that want foreigners to learn our language, yet most of us refuse to learn the languages of the places we want to visit. It's ridiculous. (If I ever go to South Korea or Japan, I'm going to try to learn the languages first... I'll feel totally lost, otherwise.)

Oh... I just remembered, didn't Bi do a concert in Atlanta, GA last year? Atlanta's only six hours away, but the concert cost way too much, so I couldn't go. I think there were a lot of delays and stuff, too. Did the concert ever happen?

rocketfuel, I see your point of view. Ten years ago, I'd have found it pretty annoying, too. But since I, myself, am in a mixed marriage (and have many friends in mm's, both in Asian woman/Caucasian man AND vice versa Caucasian woman/Asian man), I'm just glad that there's SOME advertising/casting of Asian in recent years. (I'm with the 'anything' is better than 'nothing' view when it comes that, since the 'anything' in this case doesn't portray Asians as ignorant non-English speakers, martial artists, brainy nerds who wear glasses, etc., just ordinary people like everyone else) Did those commercials air in other parts of the country, too?

#45 Toya I find your post really distasteful and rather insensitive. I bet you and your friends talk about the incident you described using the phrase "ching, chong, ching". Not everyone can speak English properly, no matter how hard they try, because English is a difficult language to learn. My mother who has lived and worked in the US for over 30 years still has a hard accent and has problems with sentence structure. She is very independent, so she wouldn't bother asking one of her kids to go shopping or the movies with her just because of the "language" barrier. But you bet your last dollar, she can understand everything you say.

As for Rain's success in Hollywood...it might happen, but it won't be the way he would envision it. He does not have a unique quality/talent that would appeal to the American public. Like other Asians in cinema or tv, he will be offered very small , stereotypical roles.

Dreamer, the lack Asian cohesiveness is the mistrusts amongst our own race. I grew up hearing how the Chinese are greedy and Koreans are wife beaters, etc. I wish it wasn't so, but that's reality.

*cough*.... http://www.kollaboration.org/show.php *cough*

Some of you are overdramatizing this in a big way. Of course it's hard to make it in the US as a minority race member with insufficient English, but isn't it the exact same way in EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD?

Non-Asians in Korea are frequently cast as villains, English conversation partners or sexy blonde exotic vixens, and it's the exact same thing in Japanese entertainment. That's right, whites in Asia are typecast in the exact same roles Asians in the US are, to the t!

It's not the evil US, it's human nature.

I agree with you completely.
I hope the best for Rain...but I don't see anything big happening for him.

I found myself growing angry at the way you mocked his high ambitions. Rain might not be capable enough, but maybe he will be able to do this. And the way you said it made me believe you meant to say nothing can be done about the status quo. OF COURSE something can be done. That's why we need people like Rain. Little by little, the glass will shatter, not just by one people, but by many many many. I get mad when you sound as if you will just accept things the way they are.

I've noticed Asians, most of them, either believe they are not a part of the US--that's it's totally separate from them--or those that relinquish all claims to their heritage and community. We've been here for a long time, and yet there's still nada representation from Asians. Why is that? It's because no one has big dreams, no one speaks up. Either because they don't want to be categorized with those "Fobs" and be considered one of those "outsiders", or because they feel as if nothing can be changed and it's none of their business. The civil rights movement started when the blacks realized it was they BELONGED in America--no one had a right to kick them out or demean them--and spoke against the injustice. But from what I've seen, it feels as if no one wishes to break the glass, or to even believe they belong here. *laugh* Isn't it funny? How all minorities have had some clashes, have argued against unfairness, yet we're the ONLY one that has not done A THING?!

Even if Rain doesn't succeed, it's a step in the right direction. I wish with all my heart that he'd be able to do this, and achieve some success, for Asians in America, and also for Asians everywhere else, so that they have the respect and representation they deserve.

This guy is Asia's best shot ever. (I know he's Korean, and I'm not lumping everyone together. I am simply saying, with the US' view as it currently is, he will have to be the representation for ALL of us as they wouldn't look at him singularly anyway. Look at Sandra Oh or Lucy Lu. They're known as the "Asian actresses", nothing else, right?) He has the determination. He's willing to work for it, and he's got talent to back it up. His not knowing English will be a setback, and I do think it'd be easier for him if he was Asian-American instead. That being said, I am a huge supporter of Rain and though I know it will be hard, I'm not too proud to hope. I'm not being overly optimistic by any means. I do know there's a huge percent that he won't be able to do this. But I am not laughing at his dreams either. He's the only one that's really been able to dream so far, and to go this far, and at this point, I'm rooting for him with all my heart, and I really do believe there's chance he'll make it through. Even if he doesn't, I won't be mocking him either.

I wish Javabeans would also do so.

Miki, have you ever visited Allkpop or Popseoul? Javabeans' entry was civil and tame compared to those overexaggerating gossip sites.

I have to agree with Clarice (#62) in that this type cast happens all over the world and not just in the U.S. The biggest difference though is that U.S. media is more widely distributed world wide then any other country. While ‘we’ know that these stereotypes are obviously misleading, other parts of the world and of course certain parts of the U.S. base their reality on these misguided typecast.

Like many of the other posters, I also agree with Ms. Javabeans’ rant about the difficulties that Rain will be facing with his English skills. My only beef is that I don’t like Rain (I must be one of the few people/minority males here that didn’t like ‘Full House’) and to me, if someone were to represent Korea or Asians in general, Rain would definitely not be it. That doesn’t mean that I want him to fail utterly, but I can definitely think of other diverse individuals that would make a more positive statement for Koreans and other Asians.

@ Dreamer
I don’t think you make a fair comparison of the Jewish successfulness in the U.S to any other minority for the following reasons: 1) The vast majority of Jews (especially those in powerful positions) are still Caucasian. Being Caucasian in the U.S, even though your religion is Jewish, does have social advantages/influences as compared to Asians, Latinos, and African Americans 2) They do have a strong cohesion, but that can be contributed by the thousands of years of being persecuted by other groups. I don’t think that any of the other minority groups mentioned can say the same thing.

Also, Blacks and Latinos do have their film unfavorable arch types just like Asians. You can’t seriously tell me that you don’t see it in TV or movies of what these other groups are ‘Typically’ characterized as. I took several Latino film studies class in college and I can tell you that Latinos in U.S. films did not have a favorable characterization for MANY years (dating back to the 1920’s). Even today, the stereotypes are similar to Asians in that they placed into a cookie cutter mold. My question to you is where is all this protest that you speak of from these groups? They are most certain being humiliated (sometimes by their own doing) but I don’t recall seeing/reading these loud and clear protests that you think Asians are failing to do. I can definitely still flip the channel or watch a movie that places them them in these stereotypes as well.

Should we take a laissez-faire ish attitude? No, but we definitely can ignore some of the obvious facts and issues either.

This is a question: Has Rain/Bi experienced the Colbert Bump? I mean most people who have appeared on that show did

Miki, Javabeans said she would gladly eat her words if she's proved wrong. Doesn't that mean anything?

We need more people like Javabeans. I've had enough of Korean media reports (I think he only reads these ^___^) that report glowingly of Rain no matter what he does ><. On the other hand, there are over-the-top gossip sites who slam/mock him relentlessly. So, Bravo to Javabeans for presenting an objective and balanced view.

@ Miki: I don't think you're being fair when you're placing the blame on Asians because you're essentially saying that WE (Asians) are the reason why there's still lack of representation of Asians in the media. For the lack of a more graceful way to ask, but are you kidding me?

No one has big dreams? No one speaks up? Way to demean the entire population of Asian Americans living here who have both those ambitions but have been ignored and disregarded because of circumstances they cannot control.

@ Miki, I agree with the post above; you can't simply put the blame on the Asian-American population for not "stepping up" and fighting for recognition in comparison to other ethnicities. On the contrary, I find that the Asian-American community - especially where I live - very strongly fights for recognition of our cultural roots and practices. Sure we're typecast - but if you're not white and have below-level acting skills, it's more likely than not that you WILL be typecast. That's just the industry for you, and acknowledging this fact doesn't necessarily mean we (or Javabeans for that matter) are blatantly accepting that. It's unacceptable, but I recognize that it's true.

Neither would I outwardly state that Sandra Oh or Lucy Liu are simply known as "Asian actresses". On several occasions Sandra Oh and been commended for her amazing acting skills, and on a side note, yeah it's acknowledged that she's Korean - just as much as any other actor/actress from a foreign country. The media is always pointing out that James McAvoy is Irish, or that Nicole Kidman is Australian - what's wrong with the industry pointing out that you're Asian?

"It’s because no one has big dreams, no one speaks up. ... Isn’t it funny? How all minorities have had some clashes, have argued against unfairness, yet we’re the ONLY one that has not done A THING?!"

Once again I find these horribly inaccurate generalizations. I can't help but disagree, along with the fact that voicing a personal opinion doesn't necessarily make it "mockery".

"Non-Asians in Korea are frequently cast as villains, English conversation partners or sexy blonde exotic vixens, and it’s the exact same thing in Japanese entertainment. That’s right, whites in Asia are typecast in the exact same roles Asians in the US are, to the t!"

I agree! Does anyone remember that first episode of My Girl where Lee Junki is having some affair with - what was his name? Carlo? Mario? There were a couple of sleazy looking white women that they typecast in My Girl as being one of the many conquests of Lee Junki's character.

If we were to remove the race card from this discussion, can many of us honestly believe that Rain's talents alone will enable him to excel in the competitive US entertainment world? I still believe that this post's original intent is to point out the necessity of knowing your environment and your capabilities. I applaud Rain for his fearlessness and wish him lots of success. Honestly, that does not force me to turn a blind eye toward his limits. Change cannot happen if the foundation is not set. It is premature to envision world changing acts when he has not even mastered basic English skills. I wish that Rain would slow down and reevaluate his game plan. There is nothing wrong with that, is it?

Lastly, I'd love to see that glass ceiling come crashing down in my lifetime. Hopefully by someone whose success resulted from neither race nor skin color, but from his/her own abilities. Being an Asian (-American) should only be a footnote.

Just to add on, because someone mentioned this earlier, there have been some successful Asian cross-over - not necessarily cross-overs, but Asian foreigners who've made it big in America.

The only notable one that comes to mind are the Black Eyed Peas, (because I'm Filipina, they're the only ones I can really think of.) whose two MC's were born and raised in the Philippines. They've even released popular tracks documenting their struggles, which became popular singles released in America.

Most Americans these days speak, "an embarrassing hybrid of gangsta Engrishee." The fact that they go out of their way to affect this popular bit of nonsense is much more a hinderance to the natives than it is to foreignors who should be saluted for putting forth the effort to learn a tongue so unnatural to them. As a teacher, student, and citizen of the United States, it has been my privilage to know and work with a great many peoples from all corners of the Earth. Talent, conviction, and perseverance are the keys to success. The Beatles didn't speak a word of Japanese and somehow still managed to sell millions of records and thousands of seats to an appreciative and loyal audience, repeating the same success globally.

If being fluent in the language meant a thing in this country, we'd have all been happily unaware of the "words" nucular and penintula.

I don't thing that it's the same comparison there robbo4. As much as I would like to think, the Korean language is not widely spoken as English. Also, English speaking cultures like the U.S. and U.K. have always been more widely distributed/accepted world wide then any other language. How many other non-English speaking entertainers have had as much success as the Beatles? People like Madonna, Justin Timberlake, Rolling Stone, etc... had huge followings world wide. Can that be said about an entertainer who spoke another language? You'll probably find very few, but still the point is that it's not the same thing.

With that said, to break into this media monster machine, you're typically going to have to know the English language to make. It's not impossible, but the odds aren't that good either.

Can the singer/performer/actor RAIN break through in America - not anyone else - but Rain/Bi? That's the question as I understand it.
I think English is the least of his worries -
2 years ago - the Academy Award went to a song and singer from the Motorcycle Diaries - the song was in Spanish - it didn't win a foreign language award - it won the Academy Award. Al Otra del Lado de Rio
Of course the next year - the song of the year at the Academy Awards was
"It's hard out There for a Pimp."
So language and style are clearly up for grabs.
What grabs the audience attention is definable for about 10 seconds.
Can RAIN compete - it would only take ONE SONG - in any language for him to break through.
In the 1960's all kinds of Grammys and Awards went to Brazil 66 - they were from South America. Again, NOT foreign language awards - straight Grammys.
In the 1980's Christopher Cross won the Oscar AND some Grammys - including best new artist - he was privately considered so frumpy and dull looking - his managers refused to let him be SEEN in public - they let his MUSIC speak for him.
the song..."the THEME FROM ARTHUR" "when you get caught between the world and New York City..."
RAIN's got looks - and with ONE song - he's in.
doesn't matter what his country of origin is or what his language is.
I'm only speaking about RAIN - because that was what i understood the topic to be.
Richard Harris - RICHARD HARRIS - the old, old now deceased British actor - smashed through the American Charts with MacArthur Park - won all kinds of awards. It was the SONG.
All RAIN needs is a great song - he can sing it in any language - history proves that.
Oh yeah, and I think to get the Colbert BUMP - you actually have to BE ON THE SHOW. Which is what I'd be screaming to his new agents.
We're all reading this - while we wait to see if Huckabee is going to win the Virginia primaries - HUCKABEE!!! A conservative that wants to bomb us back to the dark ages of morality -
Huckabee - ! WHY?
The Colbert BUMP!
Mike Huckabee went on Colbert's report last week and gave Stephen all the credit . Who knew who this guy was?
Never underestimate the value of ONE GOOD SONG ...
and NEVER underestimate the power of the Comedy Channel...
I'm still only thinking about RAIN - one good song, one good part - one 5 minute segment on the Colbert Report and the discussion about RAIN and what he woulda, shoulda, coulda will be moot.
Paris Hilton was on Happy Sunday wearing a Hanbok last weekend - no one gave her a hard time about language.

Clarice-- I see so many people making that exact argument -- "it's not just the US, its true in EVERY country." I used to make the same argument, but I realized this kind of thinking didn't sit very well at all because its so incredibly defensive. If we were talking about a caucasian actor trying to make it in korea, of course there would be a glass ceiling there, and it would deserve the same amount of criticism. But that's a whole different conversation; right now we're talking about the United States, and just because Korea or some other foreign country does the same thing doesn't justify or in any way excuse the glass ceiling in the US. Nobody's singling out America and labeling it EVIL; we're just discussing an unfortunate and stupid reality that exists here, and the fact that its prevalent in other countries doesn't make it any less unfortunate and stupid in this country, period. Its not an attack on America, and its not supposed to be a "SO? YOU DO IT TOO! YOU DID IT FIRST!" kind of argument.

And, plus, somwhere along the way I realized the US isn't Korea or some other highly homogenous country where its still common to see people stop and gawk at the sight of foreigners. The American population is the most diverse in the world (actually, I don't know that, but atleast ONE of the most diverse). A huge chunk of the minority population in the US are 100% American, whereas in korea nearly the entirety of the minority populations are foreigners. So I expect to see less of that kind of ignorant "there's us and then there's them" depiction of minorities in the US, because minorities ARE PART OF "US." Koreans get to see themselves as normal integrated people in Korea, and I don't see why I shouldn't expect to see Americans like myself depicted as normal integrated people in my own country (example being Sandra Oh). Unfortunately, it doesn't get reflected in the media often enough, which makes it seem as if all asians are foreigners or somehow separate from "normal" Americans just because they're asians. It may be the case that your race determines whether you're korean or not in Korea, but thats definitely not the way it goes America. And we're talking about the rule, not the exceptions.

With that said, Bi obviously isn't an American and definitely not an english speaker, so I don't have high hopes for him. I mean, Americans themselves have a hard time enough making it as it is when they're asian. With that said, I hope, like Javabeans, that I eat my words.

As many a lad band and David Beckham will tell you, you do not arrive in the States as a pop star; you arrive as merely pop. America exports its pop culture, because it prefers not to import it.

Racial politics aside, why would I put up posters of Rain if I grew up on Justin?

ha ha, paris hilton. actually she's not such a great example because they might be nice to her to her face but all the press about her in korea is negative. like she's disrespectful and rude and stuff. some people like her but most of the public opinons are negative

@ 60
Well, allisgood, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it, but please do not make insinuations that I am racist. That is crossing the line. Just because I get annoyed doesn't mean I treat the person with any less respect then I do anyone else. And no I don't have friends that make those joke, I did have a coworker that did and he was Chinese himself.

In addition I also said I have the same mindset for an English speaking person going to a non-English country for a job. It's not me hating on whoever the hell you apparently got it in your head I supposedly hate.

I personally would not go to Japan with little knowledge of Japanese and expect the job / populous / world to treat me kindly. It just doesn't work that way. We may wish it did, but it doesn't.

@canyayasis: "Paris Hilton was on Happy Sunday wearing a Hanbok last weekend - no one gave her a hard time about language."

Please read baffomet's post: "English speaking cultures like the U.S. and U.K. have always been more widely distributed/accepted world wide then any other language."

I'd like to point out an article from last year, which still applies today:

Missing: Asian-American pop stars
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/04/news/singer.php

I can't find another article that was related to this too.. It was also well written.

Syall - that is a great article! thank you so much.
I've passed it on to my music friends - well articulated article.
re: Paris - i just found her presence on Happy Sunday really ODD!
as they wrote - she is someone who is only famous for being famous -
It was a strange booking for ANY SHOW on ANY continent!
But i stand by my personal experience in L.A. that the right song - can break through any ceiling.

alynizzle, i'm all for dramabeans being honest but then honesty laced with sarcasm is equal to being insulting.

All I can say at this point is, I LOVE this post. My thoughts exactly, but you phrased everything so nicely and coherently.

alynizzle: Sarcasm + honesty =
http://popseoul.com/category/rain-bi/
http://www.allkpop.com/index.php/tags/tag/bi

@Baffomet: "I don’t think you make a fair comparison of the Jewish successfulness in the U.S to any other minority for the following reasons: 1) The vast majority of Jews (especially those in powerful positions) are still Caucasian. Being Caucasian in the U.S, even though your religion is Jewish."

This is patently untrue. Most Jews - do not consider themselves "Caucausian," which is the foundation of the creation of Israel (land of Semites) - as well as Irish Catholics who immigrated to the U.S. came into the country facing tremendous xenophobia (from predominantly Protestants population). They managed - a mere 1-2% of the population - to assimilate by changing names (1930s-1960s Hollywood being a classic example) and by even getting nose jobs (NY constituency, especially). Also many other cultures have suffered from centuries of discrimination as well, so I doubt if cohesiveness is an obvious by product of this.

It seems - and I am happy about it - that my comments have sparked a discussion about how we view ourselves. Yes, I have glanced at PopSeoul and have had my stomach churn with disgust at their fluff. If I want bitchiness, I prefer Perez Hilton. What I found offensive about Dramabean's post (and the subsequent laughter, and almost salivating glee over Rain failing that followed) is the 'I am American and I know so much more about Asian delusions about cross-over 'cause we all know that "X" (Rain or whomever) has not a chance in hell and will probably fall on his face because HE is not prepared or he is full of himself or he will fall on his ego, face first, and wouldn't that generate peals of laughter.'

The undermining of his signing with WMA is one example of the disturbing reduction of Rain's accomplishment. The rant also smacks of the Asian-American mentality that it somehow has a pulse on things that other Asians (naive or ignorant or wanna-be-ganstas) just do not have. Asian-Asians are basically boat people, if you will, while Asian-Americans are enlightened.

What I identify in the post (which I contend is brutal in its vicious "humor") is what I have seen on ground in Asian-American populations and pockets: the need to tear oneself and itself down. I do not see that kind -- or that level of self-destructive behavior - IN ANY OTHER MINORITY COMMUNITY in the United States. Yes, divisiveness and viciousness are there in ALL communities, but when push comes to shove, people from Miami, El Salvador, Mexico, Panama, etc. - all people of vastly different backgrounds - stick together. That is missing on a general scale in the Asian-American community. There is a reason why Hispanic music (in Spanish, NOT English) is a powerful music industry in and of itself in the U.S. (without mainstream acceptance for many decades, and not even now), and it is because of its cultural base. There is a reason why African American music is popular - even gangsta rap - and that is because it has made its presence KNOWN. It has owned the space it exists upon.

Bottom line: My grandfather and great grandfather who laid railway tracks in western states 100 years ago, and who had no legal right to OWN the land they were working their back off on, now have children who are doctors and engineers. We are one of the most educated and most successful demographics in the U.S., and yet we are barely a whisper on the landscape of this nation. And this is, I would argue, thanks - to a large extent - to the misplaced self-hatred that we ourselves generate.

The rant I was responding to is, in my opinion, hardly objective (which someone argued that it was). But more insidiously, it highlighted the sublimated message of our general inability to lay claim to the ground on which we stand. And it is ground on which we should welcome our "kind" to come and conquer, or to come and fail, but always with our support. God knows that we have enough people cutting us down as it is.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation.

I have been enjoying the discussion tremendously because more than anything, I want us to ENGAGE with issues of self and other. I hope, at the very least, that this will cause someone to hesitate before they denigrate someone's dreams, however implausible the dream. And if not, that's fine. I will continue my cause. And I wish everyone the best in theirs.

Oh and one more thing (yeah, I know that I said that I was done with the conversation): Javabeans, you are a very talented writer, and I hope you will consider writing for or contributing to Asia-supportive magazines or publication.
Miki, I extend the same offer to you. I am not leaving others out intentionally. It's just I cannot remember the names of all who posted very thoughtful comments. My apologies.

I remember one of Jet Li's interview where he described his first experience working in an English-speaking movie, opposite Mel Gibson. Jet Li memorized his lines in English and tried to act but it was too difficult. Mel Gibson couldn't comprehend what he said. Furthermore, Jet Li spit out the English lines as if he was reading a foreign-language book . The director in the end asked him to show his emotions, forget about those lines and just fight. Jet Li has something to offer to the bosses (not the directors, producers etc..but the big boardroom directors).

As long as Rain gets the right opportunity and material (be it songs or whatever) and is able to prove to the big bosses sitting in the boardrooms that he can earn them real money, English will not be such a huge issue. Rain should think about what he can market / sell as a performer/artist (if any) in the USA. He is definitely not selling his English skills. We can agree that there is discrimination, marginalizations etc etc in the USA for people of Asian descent but nobody discriminates against money.

Jet Li knows the rules of the game and the culture of this game. At least he is learning it as he goes. He said it is important to understand what is needed of you in this new environment. If Jet Li was asked to play a policeman in the USA, does he really know how the police works in the USA? He has to observe and understand his marketplace before jumping straight into it. Jet seems to understand what are his bargaining chips and who makes the calls.

I don't know much about Rain at all. But hopefully he is not that naive to not know his market before planning to invest all of his aspirations / time in this just because it is Hollywood. This entry seems to suggest that Rain is ignorant of the market. Hopefully he knows what he's doing and what he is getting himself into. But, Without trying, he wouldn't know what this opportunity will (or will not) bring him in the future. I wish him best of luck.

This may be too late a post, since it seems your Dreamer has declared this discussion over. She's pretty pissed off.
A Friend forwarded this post to our agency-
Our discussion was- that it didn't seem the salivating had anything to do with the singer named RAIN - that is was about how to break into the music business.
That the jokes were about us, not ethnic demographics. (the big 3 - we still contend there are only 3 that matter.)
That this is a lively entertainment forum - with an emphasis on the notion that it is intended to entertain -
The laughter and the fun poked at ICM, CAA and WMA was deserved.
And also, none of us knew what an "imprint" agency was - though some thought it might be akin to "Beverly Hills adjacent" - and we asked around the room.
But, having said a few things, if WMA wants RAIN to be an important singer in America - they will work hard to make that happen. They would not have signed him if they thought otherwise.
And none should marginalize a determined talent agent.
The humor was not lost on any of us.
And odds are, this small message will only ignite more rage from your Dreamer.
Sorry to the rest of you - because all of the cleverness was appreciated.

@Ter

I'm neither trying to defend the US nor talk its problems away. It's also not a defensive post, because I'm neither American nor do I have any emotional connection whatsoever with the country. I'm also not Asian, and would therefore like to think of myself as more of a neutral observer. Reading through the other comments, I simply felt people were lacking some perspective, and honestly sounded like they weren't aware of the fact that people other than Americans could be just as "racist". It was merely a reaction to how a lot of the comments sounded to me.

Clarice -- Ok, I get the intent of your post now.

I think people are coming off that way because they're talking about racism in America specifically, so a lot of people are naturally going to be singling out American racism, not, say, racism in India. And they may or may not consider the fact that it happens in other countries, but in the end, I'm not sure if it makes such a difference. At least for me, knowing that it happens elsewhere doesn't change my perspective very much, because I'm talking about racism in America, and knowing that other foreign brands of racism exist out there doesn't change a single thing for me over here... I'm still just as sour over it.

i pity the guy...
coz his fellow asians are berating him...so badly :(

Gosh! I don't think this writing intent to berating or mocking or elsewhere. It is merely a realistic observant and objective view with a twirl of sarcasm. It is just an opinion of outsiders that also part of him as an Asian. I think being critical with a fair assumpation that conclude with positive hope that javabeans has said she will eat her word if Rain succed later is enough of proof already. Well, this writing is well written despite the sarcasam it is well balance with being critical but in objective way. You guys should take a peek at others Kpop blogs out there. Really! What javabeans offered is intelligently tame up.

whether rain makes it or not, i've gotta give him props for having a dream, a goal, something to work hard for. he's said it in interviews himself - even if he doesn't make it in the western world, he hopes that just by him trying, he's helped to pave the road for someone else. can't deny it: the guy's got guts - a heck lot more guts than I do. I mean, so many ppl (myself included) are so afraid of failure, they don't wanna try something new (like quit their current job and pursue their passions). Rain's taken on a challenge and if he fails, he knows he will fail with complete public scrutiny. I admire him for his work ethic and his attitude in life.

speaking of which it seems that he will be playing a lead role in the next Wachowski Bros / Joel Silver movie, at least from what was announced at his press conference. While we haven't seen his performance in speedracer, it seems like someone in hollywood does see potential in this guy. I mean these are the guys who delivered the matrix to us and are the same people who worked with him in speedracer. whether he succeeds or not, at least mainstream hollywood seems to want to give him a chance. That's great for him.

The only ones that can change asian males image in Amerikkka are the likes of John Cho (Milf & Harold n Kumar), Will Yun Lee (Elektra & Bionic Woman), Rick Yune / Karl Yune (Brothers. Rick was in 007 & Karl was in Geisha). Maybe Daniel Dae Kim as well (Lost)... it's funny that all of these guys are Korean. Anyways, all of them can speak english perfectly and are americanized. Also, many females find them attractive. Rain on the other hand has a thick accent and looks like some wiry kid entertainer wannabe. The focus should be on these other stars, not the fobby ones that come over here.

Also, look at the long history of racism in this country when people first immigrate here. Blacks as slaves. Italians, Polish, Irish, Jewish, etc. were looked down upon when they first came here as well. Now Latinos (Illegal Immigration) and Asians are in this predicament. It takes a while for Amerikkka to accept you & be properly assimilated into society. It's gonna take time but eventually it will happen. I mean whites will be a minority in about 50 years or so.

I seriously love what you're saying... I seriously don't think Rain would be successful... He cannot act!!! I mean, besides Full House, what else have we seen him in and he's decent in??? I only remember the movie that mental movie he was in because of his yudool song...

He should just keep with singing... I'm so sorry, but yeah, he still has a long way to go before hitting it big in Hollywood cause apparently, the need martial arts and decent English... Well, Rain doesn't know the talk but pretends it... This just freaks me out cause it can often be misinterpreted and he'll end up in the front page of the entertainment section...

I'm not so sure about se7en's debut. But yes, I support him cause he's got talent... He can sing and dance... Also, he's very involved with his album production, so I think he'll take his American debut more seriously and make better decisions... I'm sure that not all of America will like him, but whatever. I just hope that some Americans will get to know who he is...

lets not let our hopes pretend to be reality.
how come no asian actors/singers who want to join the US market ever do it on their own skills and cultural roots? (besides the very very few). what i mean is become the best in their countries and the whole asian continent, then be asked or invited from the US market to become equal partners because their fame is just too much to ignore, even from the US market.

that's one thing that people don't understand. you are on top of the world in your country, but other countries do not function the exact same way. the majority of americans do not even know what asian is besides their bitter memories of war and poverty in the history texts. heck, so many people are shock when they watch hindi films and bollywood is pretty big.

And not just asian, even the black people are having a tough time in the hollywood business. very rarely would you see a movie with a pretty even casting of black and white people. usually the leads are white and thus everyone else is white, or leads is one black guy w/ one white guy and the rest is white, or the leads are black and the cast is mainly black. it's true, go watch the movies with two black leads...it's sad but true.

when american moviestars go on tours to other countries or are promoting their films world wide/ or when they work with foreign choreaographers or directors/producers, do they work their ass off the learn other languages...umm probably not. they just expect and take for granted that their american/hoolywood background and english should suffice, because everyone should learn to speak english!(my sarcasm dripping)

why is he so willing to debut as an unknown actor instead of a singer when what he really wants to do is have a singing career right? Bi should ask himself why he needs to sing in english. is his songs in korean not good enough? i guess i just hate it when other country artists cater to US market...it's kind of reinforcing the constant accepted put-down of other foreign artists/actors/actresses and countries.

just think about it. south korea is mostly full of koreans, but it is normal for an american film to be showing and most viewers are korean. it is accepted. america is supposedly the most diversed country, the "melting pot" and there is rarely and promotion or showing of asian/korean, etc. movies. asian music..umm non existent (i can be absolutely wrong, please correct me, but i have not heard of any asian singers debuting in america and famous in america.)

it's sad that most foreign artists think they have to be american-like to be successful in the US market. i would like someone to just come in with so much energy and force their style to become successful, because they believe they are just that strong and great. i would love it if he could start the first crack on the invisible ceiling, but the way he is going seems more like he will become molded by the american image. he should not value US recognition more than Korean Industry recognition because it is his country and Korean fans that made him who he is. but i will still hold up hope.

In se7en's defense, being Known isn't necessarily an edge. A lot of people had negative reactions to seeing Rain in Time and on the Colbert report because his fashion and music were too close to what would be considered taboo effeminacy.

I completely understand your skepticism about Rain and honestly I agree that he has a very severe uphill battle ahead with almost definite failure unless some sort of miracle happens. Success in the US is largely about niches right now. There isn't a lot of room for anything truly new, innovative, edgy, or avant-garde despite what most Americans like to tell themselves about their open-mindedness. In music there have been break-throughs for Caribbean (Rihanna), Hispanic (Daddy Yankee, Fat Joe), African (Akon), and European (Amy Winehouse) artists, but even singers from places so close to home with culturally vocal populations had hard won victories and in large part there are one or two exceptions at best. I Really hope Rain isn't expecting to kick a door open. Even Eminem couldn't do that much.

IF Rain or Se7en can find an incredible marketing team, an incredible producer, have brilliant press coverage, and really come out with something so fresh and innovative that it will counteract years of marginalization and sanctioned racism against Asians in the form of 'nerd', 'servant', and every other stereotype that could possibly equal Uncool- either artist would be in danger of one-hit-wonder status. If that is overcome there's always the Sophomore Slump. What we're talking about isn't a hit song or too. This is an issue of complete cultural overhaul.

Godspeed and Good luck to them. I would really like to see something like this happen in my lifetime and what's sad is, I don't think that's an extreme statement.