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Moon Lovers: Scarlet Heart Ryeo: Episode 15

Our heroine finally does some stepping up this hour, and it couldn’t come at a more welcome time. Just when we thought we’d lost our eyes and ears into this strange world of princes and transparent political machinations, we get a semblance of that back with the resurgence of Su as a thinking, decision-making human being. All this action will probably end in high stakes death threats for her, but what else is new?

 
EPISODE 15 RECAP

Given the choice between saving Su or remaining faithful to the late King Hyejong, So drops his sword and drops to his knees before Yo. With tears in his eyes, So grits out his allegiance to the new KING JEONGJONG, third monarch of Goryeo.

We get a flashback of a young Crown Prince Mu, an equally young Astronomer Choi, and a tiny So (before he was scarred). Astronomer Choi had reassured Mu that he had the star of a king, but he’d asked Mu what he would do if his lifeline didn’t last very long.

The young prince had claimed that the length of his life wasn’t as important as who he spent his final days with, proving that he had a good temperament even as a child. That’s when So Lite chimed in to say that he wanted to become king too, and Astronomer Choi told him not to worry—he would also become king.

In the present, Astronomer Choi looks down at the pitiful corpse of King Hyejong and calls upon the other princes to respectfully see to his remains. Elsewhere in the room, Su whispers for So to rise to his feet, claiming that all of this happened because of her.

In answer, So drags her out of the palace, only to be stopped by ninth prince Won. Won delightfully informs him that under the new king’s command, if Su were to somehow disappear from Damiwon, then he’d spread the news throughout Goryeo that she poisoned the late King Hyejong.

There’s turmoil over at tenth prince Eun’s home as King Jeongjong seeks to solidify his power by ridding himself of his pesky brother. Eun and his wife have already escaped though, so the king returns to the palace to commend Wook on his evil deeds. Apparently, it was Wook who advised him to use Su to keep So in check.

The king’s uncle, Minister of the Left Wang Shik-ryeom, bids Wook to kneel before his new king. Wook keeps his poker face on as he does so, repeating the same chants of “Manseh!” as So did earlier.

King Jeongjong sits on the throne he coveted for so long, decreeing that Eun must be found in order for their plot (of making Eun’s grandfather seem as though he was planning a revolt, or something) to work. I love how Wook is all, “If only we knew a hunting dog skilled in matters like these…”

Eun’s grandfather Wang Gyu is caught and executed, along with other members of Eun’s family. Queen Sinmyeongsunseong watches the butchery and smiles her biggest smile yet, since she couldn’t be any prouder of her son. I’m officially convinced that this woman is the devil.

However, what King Jeongjong says next takes her by surprise: He wants her out of palace affairs, which he’ll take care of from now on. She can just live comfortably, which is not what the new Queen Mother wants.

She’s especially incensed that King Jeongjong is even entertaining the idea of keeping So around, despite Jeongjong’s claims that So saved his life by holding back when he stabbed him on the edge of the cliff. He gives So the mission Wook not-so-subtly hinted at: Find Eun and kill him. If he doesn’t, then he’ll be putting Baek-ah, Astronomer Choi, and even Su in danger.

After So’s gone, the king proves that he’s not grateful at all to So for saving his life, and finds the sympathy So showed him upsetting. As to why he’s keeping him around, he tells his mother that it’s more fun to try taming him for now.

So tells Grand General Park and Astronomer Choi of the new mission the king’s given him, but leaves out the part about killing both Eun and his wife. Since Soon-deok is General Park’s daughter, he warns So that he won’t stand by and let his daughter get caught up in a fight amongst princes.

Later, So pulls Su aside to tell her that it’s now common knowledge that the king died from mercury poisoning, but no one knows who the culprit is. He wants her to lay low for the time he’ll be out of the palace, and tells her to go to Astronomer Choi if she’s in danger.

Su knows enough to guess that she’s been used against So for the mission he has to go on, but he simply pats her on the head and tells her not to worry about it before he pulls her into a farewell embrace.

Despite knowing that only she and Chae-ryung attended to the king, and despite Chae-ryung’s immediately suspicious protestations that it most definitely wasn’t her, Su doesn’t suspect her in the slightest. There goes that.

But when Chae-ryung tells her that Eun’s entire family was killed, Su has a dramatic flashback to what So just told her about having to leave the palace to hunt down a traitor. She knows now that he was talking about Eun and panics.

She shuffles around listlessly afterward, only seeming to come back to reality when Soon-deok approaches her, disguised as a court lady. Since Eun trusts Su, they tell her that they only need to hide in her room until they can prepare safe passage out. Su promises to do what she can to help them.

Poor Eun still thinks that he can get help from his brothers, but it’s Su who puts a stop to that line of thinking when she reveals that So’s been sent to find him. She carefully sidesteps around telling him what’s happened to his family, and thankfully, he’s blissful in his ignorance. Soon-deok seems to know much more, but of course, she’d be mad to tell him now.

Evil minister Park Young-gyu is in attendance as Woo-hee tries to broker a deal with the new king for the benefit of the starving people of the Later Baekje region. King Jeongjong seems wary of her claims that she no longer has revenge on her mind, and proposes a different deal, one that would be more beneficial to him. (We don’t get to hear what it is.)

While at a tavern with So, Baek-ah makes it clear that he doesn’t trust or respect their new king, and worries whether So actually plans to capture Eun and take him back. “You don’t trust me either,” So says ruefully, causing Baek-ah to backpedal quickly. He’s managed to track down four boats that Eun and his wife could take, but he doesn’t know which of them they will take yet.

Woo-hee finds the two half-brothers and exchanges pleasant greetings with So, who knows that Su will be happy to see her. But it’s when Woo-hee says that she’ll return to the gyobang that Baek-ah sputters, and he doesn’t seem soothed when she tells him that she won’t be a gisaeng, but just a dance instructor. As they talk, the sinister Minister Park watches.

So confronts Wook over the very suspicious events surrounding their late brother’s death, explaining that the plot to poison him with mercury for two years was much too detailed for someone like Won to come up with. It could’ve only been Wook, and the fact that the king hasn’t killed him means that he’s working with Jeongjong.

Wook forces a smile as he claims that So has always been suspicious of him, and throws back So’s accusation that he killed their brother with one of his own: “How about you? Are you going to become the king’s dog and kill Eun?”

He claims that they’re both just struggling to survive, causing So to ask what changed him. “I did not poison the late king,” Wook finally says. It doesn’t seem like So believes him.

Since Su’s been called to tend to him, Jeongjong asks her what she would do if she were tortured for a confession about the mercury in the bathwater, which she denies having any part of. Su manages to win some points when she says that she would blame it on him, even if she died doing so.

Impressed, King Jeongjong interestingly notes that she’s the same as she used to be when she was younger (interesting because no one seems to mention that the actual Su had a past), and assures her that he won’t get rid of the only leverage he has over his brothers.

With that in mind, Su asks him to divulge who the real culprit was just to sate her curiosity—she won’t be able to tell anyone anyway, since all Jeongjong would have to do is accuse her of killing the king to make her disappear.

Before he can answer, Wook’s entrance is announced, and Jeongjong smiles wickedly as he says that Wook arrived right on time. Su just got her answer, and she can’t control her expression as she turns to look at Wook. Jeongjong just fans the flames by telling Wook that Su is simply dying to know who poisoned the king, and gets a kick out of Wook falsely claiming that the king died of an illness.

Once they’re outside, Su seems to already know the answer when she asks Wook whether he had any hand in the poisoning. It seems like she’s testing to see whether he’d lie to her directly, but the scene abruptly cuts to Queen Sinjeong tearing into Wook for his latest string of traitorous decisions.

“Is it because of Hae Su?” the queen asks. Much to her dismay, Wook answers, “Yes. I did think of her. It is because of her. Su said I tried to have everything for myself, and that that was wrong. But what of it? I tried to protect my family and my heart. What’s so wrong about that? Mother, you told me to live a proper life, and I lived my life that way. So… why am I still lonely?”

With tears in his eyes and on his cheeks, Wook claims that he’s already chosen the path he has to follow. He will get what he wants even if it means taking a different path than what he once intended: “I will no longer lose what I desire like a fool.”

Cut back to him and Su (oh, it was a flashback) as he flatly tells her, “I have done nothing wrong.”

So finds Su after hearing about her meeting with the king, though she assuages his fears by telling him that the king has no plans to kill her or kick her out of the palace. So knows it’s because the king plans to use her to manipulate him, but he’s just happy she’s safe for now.

In stark contrast to Wook, So comes clean to Su about being sent to hunt Eun down when she broaches the topic. Even though the king wants Eun dead, So says he’ll do whatever he can to help Eun escape, though that doesn’t jive with the premonition Su had about So cutting Eun down in cold blood.

So wonders whether he can keep trusting Astronomer Choi, since he didn’t even know that Yo would become king. Choi admits as much, but claims that Yo was born with the star of a traitor, so there must have been some deviation along the way that caused him to change course and become king. They’re not going to try and blame this on Su, are they?

Wook keeps repeating the words of warning Su once gave him about So, since he now feels like her prophecy is coming true—everything is becoming So’s, and Wook can’t stop him. “What should I do?” he wonders.

Despite Soon-deok’s best(?) efforts to blend in as a court lady, Jung is able to recognize her by her quick reflexes. Luckily, he’s Team Eun, and joins in on their plans to get Eun and his wife safely out of the palace. Since all the ways out are closed, Su remembers the secret tunnel beneath the palace.

Soon-deok wants to see her father before she leaves, but Su doesn’t think that’s a good idea—it’d put her too close to So. Soon-deok asks why Su doesn’t trust So considering the relationship they have, seeming to trust So more than Su does.

Her words, along with King Taejo’s “Do not get so hung up on the future that you lose what you have now” advice causes Su to admit that Soon-deok is right about trusting So. She volunteers to fetch Astronomer Choi herself, which she was reluctant to do before because of his ties to So, and ends up leaving him a note when he isn’t in his tower. That’s safe.

Jung and Soon-deok work together to clear the rocks blocking the secret tunnel, and he seems mildly discomfited by her constantly brushing her sweat-soaked hair away. He gives her a hairpin of Su’s to hold her hair back, causing her to wonder if the pin belongs to the woman he loves.

He smiles as he admits that the hairpin’s owner risked her life for him, specifically remembering the time Su saved him from those thugs in the forest by waving a stick around. Admitting that he fell in love with her when he saw her sing, he now admits that he hopes that she’ll only sing for him one day. Aww.

Soon-deok can relate to him, having felt the same feelings once herself. She describes her childhood (as we see it in flashback), claiming that she was always different from the other girls because she didn’t like the same girly things. That’s when Eun Lite offered her a ring made of flowers, which she happily accepted.

In the present, Soon-deok tells Jung to have courage when it comes to the woman he loves. She’ll be cheering him on, but Jung gives himself his own cheer: “Fighting!” Cute.

Princess Yeonhwa pays a formal visit to the new King Jeongjong, deliberately showing off the ring he once gave her. Jeongjong laughs at the sight of it, and tells her that he’ll be sending her off to the Khitan to be married. “Congratulations on your marriage, Yeonhwa-ya.”

Yeonhwa can’t help but wonder why it is that everyone who sits on that throne tries to control her through marriage: “You must believe there is no better way to control a woman other than marriage. I’m disappointed in you.” But Jeongjong reminds her that her brother betrayed him, so he can’t very well accept her as his queen.

Now that the Jeongjong avenue is closed, Yeonhwa thinks about So, and how he already proclaimed to love someone else. Left with no other options, all she can do is cry.

Because Eun is suffering from cabin fever so badly, Soon-deok allows him one excursion to the baths, since those aren’t occupied at night. Eun tries to get some while he’s at it, but Soon-deok avoids his grasps for her clothes.

She’s wowed when Eun makes her a rabbit out of a towel, so he decides to make all sorts of things for them to play with, which includes two toy boats that they use to race against each other. When Eun wins (because she let him), he prepares to give her a smack on the inside of her wrist, only to notice that her wrist is already reddened from him doing that too much. Yikes. At least he refrains this time.

Soon-deok then gifts him with his favorite slingshot, which she managed to take with them despite all the chaos. Eun admits that he never wanted to be a prince, and Soon-deok says that they’ll be able to live out their dreams freely once they move to the island of Tamra.

Eun returns the favor by giving his wife an ornament to wear, though at first, she thinks he’s gotten it for Su. Embarrassed, he says that it was for her, and repeats the same words he’d said when he gave her the flower ring as children about “all pretty girls” liking such things.

Of course, Eun is quick to say that she’s just okay and not necessarily pretty, but Soon-deok is so overcome with happiness that she kisses him. Then, she suddenly grows paranoid that kissing could make her pregnant, causing Eun to maturely note that they should’ve lived happily like this from the very beginning. But now, it’s business time.

Yeonhwa comes to the baths looking for Su the next day, and like Chae-ryung, she takes notice of all the homemade toys suddenly lying about. She orders Su to leave So immediately, and claims that she can get Su married out to a decent family.

Su says that the reason she wants to marry So (and not just into any good family) is because he makes her feel like she’s worth something, adding that she has no reason to leave him as long as he stays true to her.

“Now I know why I’ve always hated you,” Yeonhwa grits out. “Feelings and marriage are just silly games to you. It isn’t life and death for you like it is for me.” After promising to make Su pay for her refusal to bend to her wishes, Yeonhwa storms off.

Wook advises King Jeongjong to get rid of So as soon as possible, but even the king has enough sense to know that it’s too soon for him to act without arousing suspicion. In that case, Wook claims his only chance is to drive a wedge between So’s two biggest allies: General Park and Astronomer Choi.

Yeonhwa barges in unannounced and intent on making a deal: If they like what she has to say, then she doesn’t have to be married off. It’s only revealed in a scene with her and So that Yeonhwa revealed Eun’s hiding place, having recognized the towel-animals in the Damiwon bath as his doing.

Su sees Eun and Soon-deok to the secret entrance of the cave and tells them that Jung will be waiting for them on the other side. Soon-deok thanks her, and Eun says he’ll see her when he returns, which seem like some famous last words if there ever were any.

Before they can enter the tunnel, Jung comes rushing out to tell them to run—there are guards everywhere. He’ll hold them off for as long as he can.

Su tries to find another escape route, but they’re surrounded by the sounds of swords and screams. Soon-deok tells Su to take Eun, assuring him that they won’t dare to kill her, a general’s daughter. I don’t think she honestly believes it, but she wants Eun to so that he can escape.

Despite Su’s best efforts to drag him away, Eun refuses to leave his wife. “What can I do?” he sighs. “I am all she has.”

And then, he pulls himself from Su’s grasp. She can only look after him with tears in her eyes.

 
COMMENTS

Huzzah, Su did something! It’s amazing what a difference a little proactivity makes, since I suddenly found myself invested in her story this episode. And all it took was for her to have things she wanted to accomplish! How hard was that?

But in all seriousness, it really did feel like she was wandering around without goals or anything she necessarily wanted, which made it intensely difficult for me to get on board with pretty much anything she was doing. And on a much larger scale, I still don’t know what she wants out of her time here in Goryeo, and found it somewhat confusing that she suddenly reverted back to fearing So based on her still unexplained premonition. And then she reverted back to not fearing him based on other people’s advice, which was a bit disappointing—I would’ve liked for her own feelings about So to dictate how she felt about him, rather than other people having to remind her that she should trust him based off her feelings.

On a smaller episodic scale though, I was just happy that I could finally follow her, though I’m wary of trusting the show to keep delivering on the Su front after they let us down following that epic Court Lady Oh episode. Still, we’re at that stage in the game where we have to take what we can get, so I’ll take Su finally thinking for herself and even (gasp) defending herself. Against a king, no less! And I could completely buy that she’d do whatever she could to save Eun because he was her first friend in Goryeo, so giving her that common goal with both Eun and Jung went such a long way toward making her more relatable to us.

Even without Su’s premonition, dramas have taught us that hope is bad, and too much of it will kill you. So when we started spending a disproportionate amount of time with Eun and Soon-deok while they planned their escape, we pretty much knew that they were doomed. The show only cemented that fact by suddenly giving tons of screen time to the couple, which for once, was actually bearable. Most of that credit belongs to Soon-deok, who’s simply way too good for Eun—and the tragedy is that he didn’t realize what a saint of a wife he had until it was too late.

And though Jung’s been pretty low on the princely totem pole up until now, his role’s been increasing these past few weeks, and I actually like where we’ve ended up with him. His one-sided crush on Su is likely going to bite him and us in the behind later, but the show was smart to use its one remaining and uncommitted prince (Baek-ah’s sort of been decommissioned with whatever it is Woo-hee’s still around for) to help move the plot along. Even though everyone’s pretty much had a crush on Su by now, I really felt for Jung and his innocent, pure love for our heroine in ways that I never felt for Eun when he was in the throes of his one-sided love. Maybe it’s easier because we know what’ll happen to Eun even if I’m dreading whatever Su-related reasons the show might cook up to justify it, but not knowing what’ll happen to Jung is much more frightening.

At least Yo is making for a more entertaining king than his predecessor, though I couldn’t be more disinterested with the political machinations in this show. It feels like they’re checking the boxes for the basic requirements needed to make a fight for the throne seem appealing, but the story’s been so erratic when it comes to the succession of kings that it’s hard to really drum up interest when everyone on the throne or hovering directly around it is terrible. Yes, that means you too, Wook.

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I know everyone is hating on Hae Su for "doubting" Wang So again, but I think what she suffers from is cognitive dissonance.

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Different Forms and Phases of Love

While ML:SHR marketed itself (poorly, IMO) as a flower boy drama, I would like to argue it reveals different forms and stages of love as depicted via our heroine and 4 of the 8 princes.

Eun (στοργή - love/affection as for a child): while Eun experienced an unrequited love from HS, he represents that first bloom of love that children experience as they move towards adolescence. HS characterised him appropriately as "pure." Child-like, perhaps even childish, but nonetheless sweet and innocent. This is mirrored in his marriage to Soon Deok. While it could be argued the delay in marriage consummation was because Eun is a blockhead, it also shows the “innocence” of their love. The fact that Soon Deok doesn’t know how babies are made confirms this child-like purity of their love.

Baek Ah (φιλία - love, but in friendship between equals): this is a true friendship built on honesty (he confronted her about her affair with Wook), mutuality (their love for Lady Hae), common beliefs (when discussing - drunk - the hierarchy of palace politics). I find it adorable that he tries to play reconciler (episode 8), finding out everyone’s favorite drink and snack so Su can make amends with So. And then, of course, he continues to bring them together (So’s poem to Su in episode 14).

Wook (ἔρος - desirous love): the passionate love you hope aren't just in fairytales. It appears as if it were true, defying conventional (or even perceived unfair) relational restrictions. It’s swoony. It’s full of promises, romantic gestures, gifts, and stolen moments. He promises the world, but in the end, when push comes to shove, he chooses something else (call it his ambition, his family, his personal interests) over his love. It’s not that he doesn’t love her, but he will always love something else over her; in a way, he will always put himself first.

Wang So (ἀγάπη - the love between a husband and wife): the epic love that lasts a lifetime, hard fought and sorely won - AND only proven true AFTER the fact. This is the one that gives up everything for the beloved: he risks everything for her: be it defying an arranged royal marriage, drinking poison, supporting her in protests, defying the king AGAIN when the king didn’t hold up his end of the bargain for So to be an envoy, even paying homage to a traitor to protect her. He thinks of her best interests above his own. He even wants her freedom above his own.

It’s a love the brings out the best in them. Su brings out the best in So, she brings out his full potential by lavishing on him the most basic amount of love that he has hungered for his entire life. He provides for her (however unappreciated in the beginning) the kind of steadfast faithfulness and devotion she has never experienced in lover or female friend.

(to be continued below)

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(continued from the post above)

It’s the one that haunts our dreams because it is what we all want: the soul-deep intimacy and understanding between two spirits of like mind, heart, and vision. It grows out of genuine friendship, trust, truthfulness, fidelity, and selflessness. It’s beauty lies in it’s utter self-giving for the good and flourishing of the object of love. I think one could argue that within Wang So, he embodies all of the different loves in appropriate and passionate form. His love for Hae Su is pure and child-like, they talk openly and vulnerably like friends, but he is passionate for her (his eyes are only towards her), and to top it all off, he is willing to die for her.

Hae Su: she’s the faithful lover until the end of time. I mentioned in an earlier post that she is loving to emo-wolf princes, loyal to disloyal prince charmings, and kind to dying kings who tortured her.

She cannot NOT love. It defines her. She embodies love and unity, the kind that families are supposed to be bound by. She dislikes Yeon Hwa, but she has NEVER lifted a finger against her. She defends herself against YH’s hostility, but she never attacks her, even when YH threatens to make her full of regret.

I know that we are all sad that Wang So/Hae Su’s love story has taken so long to build, and it’s never uncomplicated. It’s always a little bittersweet. There’s always something wrong or in the way (2nd male leads, torture, pitiful niece-brides, scheming half-sisters, envoy duties, futuristic visions)…but I think that is what makes their love EPIC.

It’s a love tested in the fiery furnaces of affliction - and comes out stronger as a result. It’s not a love that develops in the coziness of soft fluffy clouds, but the steely kind of love that faces raging storms of all kinds, determined to return home.

Can you tell I’m a hopeless romantic?

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haha in real life I would have completely no interest in Wang So. My love for damaged romantic leads is strictly within the confines of fiction.

In reality I'd probably pick Baek Ah or Jung. I'll go with Baek Ah, since I'm not into psycho mother-in-laws.

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Haha, you're so right! Me too, men like Wang So are only for my alter ego ;-) Oh but my other self loves him So (pun intended) much!!!

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Hmmm....in real life, I would probably crush pretty hard on Wook. And he would totally break my heart.

I would be best buddies with Baek-Ah.

Eun and Jung would be my little brothers who I nag to do better.

Actually, outside of the whole mass murder of monks thing, I would naturally hit it off with Wang So. I actually do find his emotionally neediness attractive. Ugh.

In an earlier post I did the MBTI for the major characters. I can't recall what I put down for Wang So, but Hae Su I put down ESFJ, but I suspect she's actually an ISFJ (like me).

Drat. #tragiclove, story of my life! \^o^/

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Back again after a very tough week of teaching and research!

OK. If I were in my 20's year old, Wook or Baek ah might be my ideal type. They're more dreamy and sensitive in love.

But since I'm in 30's, I will definitely pick Wang So. Nothing like honest, truthful man who will be in your side. From my experience, type of ideal man will change with age. I'm not sure what my type will be when I reach to my 40's. I need to wait 6 year :).

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I've been trying to imagine who the princes would be in a modern setting for the last few days now. Here's what I've come up with, I'd love to hear everyone else's modern interpretations too!

Eun- The best friend of your younger brother who's always around the house. Annoying, but harmless and cute.

Baek Ah- He probably has like a nice trust fund and runs a critically acclaimed but not commercially successfully art gallery in Soho. He know's everyone who's anyone.

Jung- The boy next door who you grew up with and has seen you through thick and thin.

Won- Totally a fraternity bro, says dude and high fives alot. Can't keep track of the girls he's hooked up with but always has a brother's back. Wants to work in management consulting or investment banking.

Wook- That post-grad you meet as a freshman in university who seems so worldly, sophisticated and erudite. Turns out he has a girlfriend and is actually kind of a dick.

Yo- Belongs to an old money powerful political family. A bit of a classist and will crush people who he thinks are aiming above their station. He already has his clerkship at the Attorney General's office lined up.

Wang So- Please, the bad boy with a heart of gold trope transcends time.

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nope, Won is the guy you kind of want to watch your drinks around, and will totally suck up to the bro who has the most connections. Looks pleasant at first but you need to watch your back.

and yeah, So transcends time <33333

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@ren,@pogo.....lol....really great!

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Yes, Won is the sidekick of the guy with the most power and connections.

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@pogo, damn that shade thrown at Won is strong!

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@Ren - this is late but trust me, a real-life Won is exactly that type - seems benign at first, but will always side with power and cannot be trusted not to spike yours/your friend's drinks.

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Omg I laughed a bit too hard at Wook's description. You're genius!

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Jung - he woud be like the 2nd lead in Playful Kiss: funny, clueless, thug-ish, very devoted but stuck in friendzone.

Baek Ah - the choir boy or maybe altar boy in our local church

Wook - the chaebol second lead who never gets the girl

So - Tae San in motorbike (Two Weeks)

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@Ren: This is THE OTHER BEST.

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to Ren; I love your K-drama outline. Sell it quickly to SBS, so we can watch the drama next year. The only alteration would be Won. I agree with pogo's definition of Won.

PS. No 50-episode drama, please. They start strong, droop/sag/drag in the middle, then pick up toward the end.

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Hopeless romantic ... aren't we all? High five, PG, agree 100% with this analysis.

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My 2 cents ..,I would never in my life fall in love with any of the prince mentioned above ..its unimaginable ..its so demanding mentally and physically ..its just Lee joon gi's acting that is making us fall for wang so

May be if it's Lee joong gi's real life persona that I totally adore ..such a dork

@pineapple I totally love your descriptions

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Agree too

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You just cannot deal with so much in real life as if we don't have our office work to begin with .. ?????

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girl you're on point

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@PineappleGonghzu, your post just needed to be written, I appreciate you taking the time to write it. I can tell you that your description of the different types of love is full of truths. The characters in this are what have kept me hooked to this story , and spending an indecent amount of time thinking and re-thinking this storyline. Frankly, it's my first time getting so hooked to something....but possibly one of the biggest lessons to be found in this story is summed up right here, love in it's many manifestations. You can experience different types of love in a lifetime but to find the love between husband and wife is rare....Someone had pointed out to me that every time So killed a brother or a brother died he was in reality loosing a part of himself, that each of his brothers represents a different side of So. Eun would be the innocent/ playful side of himself...Yo the power hunger and swallowing up his mother's affection wanting to be the center of her Universe, Mo the innocent/ and virtuos King and closest brother to the King, Jung the warrior experiencing first love, Wook the brother that fell in love but lost love due to the game of thrones.....layers and more layers, this story is like one big onion, you can peel, and peel and still find an underlayer again....

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Oh my, I LOVE your mention of how So is killing off himself when he kills his brothers. It's so true! That is why it is so painful for him. He is really emotionally invested in his brothers.

C.S. Lewis once remarked regarding the death of his friend Charles Williams (hereafter, CW) that when he lost CW, he also lost a part of his LIVING friends. There was a specific way that CW made Friend A laugh, and once CW was gone, so that Friend A's mirth in that one aspect.

We are very interconnected to one another, whether we would like to admit it or not. We as humans are such social creatures, we thrive on relating TO and WITH one another. An action towards someone has ripple effects on those he/she knows and interacts with.

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Beautiful comparison, it is all one big ripple effect in relationships...and it's happening here too .

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@PineappleGongzhu: This is THE BEST.

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I love how you defined each princes' and Su's love. I enjoyed it a lot :) It's sad that So and Su love story developed late. The writer should have given us more of them in love. It would have made the romance even more heart-wrenching and epic.

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@PineappleGongzhu I get teary eyed reading your post LOL I'm a sucker for a damage, broken, but warm-hearted, longing-for-love male lead

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To PineappleGonzhu; You wrote a very thorough character analysis, that I began to imagine you as the scriptwriter in a preproduction meeting with the actors, giving them the outline of their characters. Each actor would have found the outline a beneficial tool for his/her acting performance.

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As always, PineappleGongzhu, you're on point. Epically on point. (I wonder where Jung would fit in this?)

And it's true, So puts Su ahead of himself pretty much all the time. And not only his life, but - even more important for a Goryeo warrior - his honour. Which even Su didn't expect of him, given their shared loyalty to Mu. When Won put that sword to her throat and Yo demanded that So choose on pain of her life, she actually closes her eyes, like she's prepared to die for that loyalty, and she wouldn't have blamed him for it at all. But of course, So chooses her.

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@pogo

That's a very fair question about Jung. Here's the thing, I'd like to wait and see. He has first seen her as an older sister, but has obviously developed feelings for her "as a man."

I think he will be very interesting to watch in his romantic developments towards Hae Su.

What do you think?

OH!! Your comment about Wang So sacrificing his honor is SOOO on point! LOVE IT! I wish I had said it as lucidly as you did. I thought to myself "he's violating his conscience", but somehow that felt so WEAK. But, you've hit it bang on the head: it's his honor that he has violated. Thanks so much for saying that!

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I think it's interesting that the story made a point of noting that Jung realised his feelings for Su at the exact same time as So (when she was singing) - in a weird way, I have a feeling that this huge thing the brothers have in common is going to be yet another major thing tearing them apart. Like I can just sense the tragedy brewing between these brothers who, if they'd been allowed to just spend more time together, could have discovered their common ground and be the brothers they were truly meant to be. But misunderstanding and resentment are going to get in the way, big time.

And like you noted, So is the epic love forged by heartbreak and suffering - but even before that, the kind of soul-deep connection neither of them have ever had with anyone else before or since (and the show did beautifully at establishing that their compatibility is rooted in so much more than attraction). We know there's worse to come, and part of my frustration stems from the fact that mistrust is still being allowed to taint this relationship on Su's end, but I really root for this OTP for so many more reasons than being told So and Su being cast and designated as main leads - we've been SHOWN time and again why they are the ones.

And I'm swooning a little again over the fact that what So wants is basically true love. And in Su, he's got it - I just wish they were allowed the smallest bit of time to actually let that sink in before the inevitable separation and heartbreak I expect.

(I will really cry if they don't meet in the modern day or SOMETHING, please drama gods)

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@pogo

Oh, I totally agree! Strangely, I found they had chemistry even in the promotional posters, which is why I was always a So-Su shipper, but I think the show makes a compelling argument for them to be OTP.

I agree, I wish they could have just a few (a few!) really blissful moments of happiness together......before we could crashing down in flames.

*cry*

YES! Let them at least have happiness in a reincarnated form in the 21st century. P-L-E-A-S-E!!!

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@PineappleGongzhu - This might sound like bragging, but I think I'm pretty good at guessing whether actors will have romantic chemistry or not, when they're paired up - I tend to use my previous knowledge of their acting styles to suss that out, and I've been right like 90 percent of the time (judging by beanie opinion on the couples in question)

But Lee Jun-ki defies my attempts to guess - he's so intense that it's sometimes hard to imagine what kind of actress would pair well opposite him, and although I've LOVED some of his pairings (Arang and My Girl <333, also the second lead in Joseon Gunman), others have fallen flat for me (Iljimae, Joseon Gunman first lead). And sometimes things are sizzling in the early episodes and then fall flat later thanks to horrible character writing (Scholar Who Walks the Night).

But after seeing IU in Producer, I had a feeling oppa pairing up with her could work, if only the writing allowed her to. And their Cosmopolitan photoshoot was what confirmed my guess, especially their solo shot. It's a shame the writing and directing for Su hasn't let IU be her best, but there's something in her eyes that just sells it. And I'd say she deserves credit for that too.

(same with her chemistry with Kang Ha-neul, that was straight-up steamy in the photoshoot and the drama, like OOF. But with Jun-ki it's still so strong that I don't want her back with Wook despite how often Wook looking at Su made me swoon)

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@pogo

Oh, I utterly believe you that you've got some good instincts about OTP chemistry. Your posts are always perceptive, so that totally makes sense.

Arang: I definitely think LJG had a real-life crush on Shin Min-Ah, hahaha! So, I can see that. I honestly don't find her so beautiful (please don't hate me for saying that). But I keep TRYING to see how others find her beautiful. Sometimes I google search her and stare just to figure out what is it that people find some captivating.

Joseon: I haven't seen this yet, although I want to. But, I think there were rumors that LJG and Jeon Hye Bin were dating, so that makes a lot of sense to me.

I haven't seen My Girl yet.

SWWTN: Oh, yeah, no chemistry there.

Actually, I think LJG tends to do better with actresses his own age. He is really intense, and he needs a woman who can create that tension by pushing back ever so slightly (like in partner dances, the connection between the lead and follower is created by the pressure playing off against each other to create the counterbalance).

Iljimae: Did you not think he had chemistry with Han Hyo-Joo? I didn't think it was so bad, actually.

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@PineappleGongzhu - thank you! I've been called names for questioning how well certain major stars will match (I called it in Heirs) and accused of bias towards my own faves, so it's nice to know at least one person thinks I'm not crazy or plain biased.

As for Shin Mina, she was my first ever girl crush in k-ent. imo more than beauty, she has a charm that makes her appealing, and (I think this is crucial) is a better actress than she's given credit for. Like she may not be technically perfect, but she does have the ability to tap and express emotion - somewhat like IU, only she's better at it thanks to experience.

Joseon Gunman: still worth a watch for Jun-ki's performance, but I have to warn you, this show likes to designate its Strong Female Lead by telling you - repeatedly - that she crossdresses! Knows about gunpowder! Likes scientific things! ..... all while having the apparent temperament of a twelve-year-old. It's exhausting to watch. Oppa and Nam Sang-mi actually worked together once before, in Time Between Dog & Wolf, but this time the chemistry was just not there and he had it all with Jeon Hye-bin instead (I was not surprised to learn they were probably dating either, haha)

My Girl: He was the second lead but seriously, his chemistry with Lee Da-hae was off the charts. Not sure if you want to watch it though, it's still entertaining and he's GORGEOUS plus it has a great soundtrack.... but it looks a bit dated styling-wise (this is a 2005 drama lol) and well, he's the second lead. But after rewatching it recently, I wish he'd do a romcom again - he's so very swoonworthy when he's in flirt mode. Or manly 'THAT guy is the one you like?!' mode. /swoon

Iljimae: I think the thing with Han Hyo-joo is that she tends to look and feel rather.....placid. Like she delivers lines properly and looks really pretty, but I just couldn't feel her character because beyond being pretty and nice and a Designated Love Interest (thank god So and Su have none of that), there's nothing to her. It was just rather flat, and that's something I've noticed in more than one of Han Hyo-joo's roles, she just doesn't have much spark in her dramas. Which doesn't sit well with Jun-ki throwing intensity and everything he had at the wall. (I honestly thought he had better chemistry with the actor who played his stepdad)

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@pogo

You know, I wonder if the reason IU has so much chemistry with LJG is because her own boyfriend is LJG's age. So, she might be more used to relating to older men in a romantic fashion.

Just a thought. When art imitates real life!

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@PineappleGongzhu - I didn't know that! And here I was, thinking it would be beyond amazing if we got a repeat of the Nicky Wu/Liu Shi Shi situation in a few years from now, ha.

And yeah, age doesn't seem to get in the way of her having good chemistry with her costars. She looked great with Jo Jong-seok too, and he's even older than Jun-ki.

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*sniff sniff I'm teary eyed just reading this. Thats why I got so frustrated when people keep talking about ships. There are no ships only true love.

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Whoops in reply to Pineapple Gongzhou

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Anyone watching the international version of this should really make an effort to watch the SBS version in this episode...at least in my opinion the missing scenes and sequence made the SBS version so much more enjoyable to watch and understand....

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Agreed. I'm only watching the same version as DB recaps

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Soo is annoying all she does is fall in love with someone and thats it although she is from future she only sees all the wrong and bad things Su is going to do and nothing else. She cant trust him but she trusts Chae ryung although it was either her or chae ryung who helped in killing the king!
I dont know but even being the head of damiwon or whatever thats called i feel that doesnt suit her its strange!
Wook and So interactions are interesting i want to see how much more wook will do he changed so much. His face is just scary with no expressions his face.

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I have something to add here in regards to Hae-Su, it has to do with her reaction. What's with this O_O expression. She is sad, its O_O, she is terrified, its O_O, she is in love, its O_O, she feels pity, its gain O_O, she is again surprised in the teaser after watching So kill Eun and once again its O_O. Somebody ban this O_O from the dramaland, no drama should be allowed to use this from now till the end of our times.

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I suppose it makes a good meme, but it's nowhere close to what's actually going on onscreen.

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IU's doing a lot better as the more mature Hae Su. I really feel like her emotions are in her eyes now without the need for the wide exaggerations.

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@pogo
I get that IU is your bias but that O_O is a bit overdone here and not exactly her strongest point acting wise. I blame her partially and blame the direct a whole lot more here. How does he let this get on screen for episodes after episodes and say OK, this works. Well, it doesn't.

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@Gem - I may cut her some slack because I've seen that she's capable of producing a genuinely good performance - including in all the aspects that she's been criticised for in Scarlet Heart.

And I have criticised the unconvincing expressions of shock and their frequent focus in early episodes, so I'm far from biased, as you put it - but continuing to tear into her for something that's hardly even present in the last few weeks of this drama/toned down drastically if it is, just seems a touch unfair to me. She has more expressions than that, this isn't Suzy we're talking about.

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The O_O looks almost like the "poem" that Soo gave to Wook. A self-protrait?

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Umm… as a history major, I would like to say that this revolution is the most ridiculous revolution I have ever witnessed. Besides the fact that Yo somehow was able to magically enter the palace with just 50 soldiers to somehow be able to fight off an entire palace to kill the king (which in effect was utterly useless since he was being poisoned anyway… sigh this plot). But like a bunch of nobles would have to be on your side to do this, or like any peasantry support, not just one powerful man who kept you alive… urgh. I mean this drama has such a massive budget, you totally have time to make this a bit more historically accurate (like at all). I know you take a creative license to this history, but I mean there’s creative and then there’s just pure fiction.

Also, am I the only one who is missing Yo’s eyeliner? Did that near-death experience make you lose your makeup mojo? What a shame.

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I think the coup had the backing of Yo's clan and Wook's support base which he had been gradually building over the last 2 years after rendering the King unfit to rule. The reason for killing the King when he was being slowly poisoned anyway was because he was in the process of abdicating the throne to So and they needed to preempt it.

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I really wish they'd kept the original Wang Gyu historical detail because Yo would have legitimised his rule with it even more efficiently? Marching into the palace with your army and Wang Sik-ryeom's to ostensibly stop a revolt by a powerful general is more effective than just like, strutting into Damiwon with fifty guards to drown your already poisoned brother, but I suppose they needed to make Yo more of a usurper than he really was. Gotta drive home that point yeah.

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He should have been the real villain here and the story would make more sense. But...again that's what happens when it's also based on a different country's historical novel. It doesn't feel like Goryeo.

I hate the changes to Jimong too. Why is he a time traveller here? They can't even develop Hae-soo properly.
He served as an adviser to Taejo, Mu and Yo. He would've been the force behind the princes and not just a bystander.

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They could have made Yo and Wang Gyu work together, before Yo turns on Wang Gyu and totally catches him off-guard by marching in to stop his troops first. That way Yo still comes off as an asshole, while like, they get to stick closer to history?? Also as I've mentioned in another comment it'll also make Eun and Soon-deok's deaths even more senseless because 1) Yo can still go in for the kill and become a true assy monster, and 2) their deaths are also caused by Wang Gyu's desire to play kingmaker, which is even sadder because like he was willing to risk his grandson's life just for that minute hope of gaining the throne. I really wish they'd made Wang Gyu a bigger part of this, since he also historically really disliked So and he'd have been a big pain in So's butt anyway. Yo could have been more quietly scheming!

But, yeah. Sure sucks to think of the all could-have-beens.

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That would've been great and makes more sense. *Sigh* they have so much materials to work with and the time and budget to make this epic.

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@Kiara - sadly, I think they spent a good chunk of their money on horrible OSTs to insert at inopportune moments.

But I do love the costumes, even if they could have done with more extras in the battle scenes/better choreography.

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To Kumoiwa, I agree with your comment.

I think that SBS was not catering to a "Six Flying Dragons-style"(i.e. grand scale) production. They opted for a small scale coup d'etat (50 guards), to control costs. Yo's palace invasion was so brief, that it was over when we blinked once.

Scriptwriter and PD should have posted a "two hours later" time jump on the screen, so the viewer would presume that there was some planning and execution behind the scenes.

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It didn't happen in the history. I don't freaking know where this writer gets all these ridiculous ideas.

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Gosh! Please don't repeat what had happened in Bali.

That's ...f*cked up.

That's too tragic T______T

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Was reading recap, reading comments, replying comments when I realize I posted wrongly. lol

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Totally loving your screen name @fanodleejinki'smane

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His mane is just too glorious for us to ignore.

Not once it loses its gloriousness. Not one moment.

Imagining Lee Jun Ki's brooding scene at Hiscliff with that mane flowing before the breeze~ Mane~ Glorious mane~
*yes, you may imagine the scene too*

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At some point, I think the show is trying to tell us that our Gwangjong was originally a kind, softhearted fella (he is!) until the dire circumstance made him the killer he was (not sure if he's killing, I mean, Yo returns from Hiscliff, so that doesn't count...). Sweet guy who howls for his love into... A guy who kills...*shivers*

Anyway, it's not like So is gonna come out of this mess smelling like roses. He'd be bathing in blood afterall.

Is this ship sinking? NOOOOOOOOOOOO~
I feel like my emotions just perked sky-high on Monday and it sinks to the bottom of deepest darkest sea on Tuesday (Wednesday, TBH, I had had to adult on Tuesday and only get to watch a few hours ago. fml)

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This is another Yeon hwa post. You have been warned.

I find Yeon hwa to be one of the most compelling K drama female characters in a long time, which probably explains why I like her so much and am fascinated by her.

Also, I don't think anyone who likes Yeon hwa is going to explain away all her bad deeds like so many people do with any handsome male character in general that makes us go gooey eyed (and because oppa received some angst that made him this way)...we can like/love/appreciate a character - without necessarily trying to gloss over aspects of their deeds.

Yeon Hwa performs the duties expected of her as a Goryeo Princess perfectly (formality wise), and has the grace of a noble and knows how to charm. In other words, she is the "perfect book model" princess. Not to mention, her sharp mind is certainly impressive. Perhaps, if the circumstances that faced her were different - I believe she and Wook didn't live in the Palace for quite some time because of some plot of Queen SMS? Her intellect and cunning would probably be used for...more benevolent reasons then for her own survival. Unfortunately, that's palace life. And just because she's born a Princess doesn't mean it's all La La land life for her.

Having been a victim of Palace machinations and seeing how her mother has suffered (who comes off as a rather empathetic lady) probably made YH the way she is now. From her POV, her mother was humilitated because she was weak and mild (also I LOVE how she's so fiercely protective of her Mother/family. Her telling Queen SMS never to make her mother bend her knee again was magnificent).

She's selfish, ruthlessly so, and I love Yeon Hwa but I doubt at all that she's even a tiny bit sad that she ratted out on Eun. In order to survive, particularly as a women in the highly patriarchal noble woman Goryeo society, Yeon Hwa has to use all of her available agency and wits. YH is also acutely aware of the odds stacked against her as a woman in Goryeo society and is frustrated by what it (can) offer(s) for her.

(And sad to say, so often women historically who have achieved great things have resorted to cruel means as a result of said patriarchy...)

Also, not that YH did was justifiable but in any case, it really shows us how deeply she views the prospects of her *not* being able to have any say in her marriage and simply get married off for alliance reasons. If she's a high value marriage prospect, she's going to make it so that she gets married to someone powerful by hook or crook.

YH may be a wicked princess, but she's also sympathetic and admirable (and dislikeable) in many ways for me.

Pfft, you know, I'd rather watch a 40 episode drama of YH and So being Kings and Queen consort (and Wook can have a part in the drama too). Also, I like LJK and So but I can't helped but be a teeny bit huffed that the female centric POV from BBJX is totally gone.

I hope I don't get fangirls coming after me, haha

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Yeah, Yeon-hwa may do things that we consider awful but we know very well her reasons for doing them, and she's not exactly doing it for a lark. I can sympathise with her motives, even if I disagree with her methods.

And I'd like to think we're the kind of place that DOESN'T come after people for offering up interesting points.

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haha I also have a soft spot in my heart for her, because I understand her. She's a more modern, easily rootable female heroine, vs. Hae Su's more mythic, nurturing heroine. It's hard to understand the angels :P

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I like Yon Hwa too, she's bad but you know she has her own somehow valid motivations that makes her a fighter. Her story will shatter little girls' dreams of a princess' sweet life. Looking through her eyes, it sucks to be a princess.

Won't there be a "Queen Dae Mok" drama where her character can be explored more? I would welcome a dark heroine to cheer on in a future drama. Sorry I didn't watch Shine or Go Crazy so I don't have idea how she was portrayed there.

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I Agree that YH has quality as a queen as you mention, but I can't cheer up for her action, if she plotted against the power like king, queen, evil PM,etc or get revenge for whoever had attacked her and got some victory on it then I will gladly applaud and support her.

But what Soo or Eun has done to her? they never attack her and yet she willing to step on their live to support her .. sorry to say but I can't .. just can't .. admire people like that

For strong female characterization in KDrama, I like Empress Ki a lot than YH, She has charmed, elegance, smart, loyal, brave, patience and always protect those who weak, she crushed every person that violated her first, but never use any innocent live as collateral to climb the highest position step by step

just 2 cent

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I liked Empress Ki's character too. It was a shame that the story wasn't so interesting during the last 10 or 15 episodes.

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I was so glad to see Yeon Hwa hit the screens for more than five seconds this episode. Welcome back, Yeon Hwa. I agree she's got some understandable motives for her behaviour, and I do like her strength. So I enjoy her character, but as a human being she really sucks.

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I'm not coming after you. Lol. The actress is doing a great job acting but the character is nasty to me. I see a younger version of Queen Yoo in her. Nothing more. I dislike her and that's mainly in regards of our OTP. The thought that someone like YH will get to marry So is irritating me to no end. I hope the drama doesn't focus on their marriage or relationship much. I'm dreading those scenes.

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Another reason to hate her is her part in getting Eun and SD killed.

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Hi guys!I just checked my instagram and i saw LJk, Jonghyun, Zhera and Seohyun posted similar pictures. I'm not sure if it's a latest one. But posting it makes me happy because our Scarlet Team really became friends.

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Per soompi it was on Oct 12, new! Was that KangHana beside Jun Gi? She was the only girl with the bare face. I want to ship her with Jun Gi ;-)

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Was that her? I can't tell. I was actually looking for her. haha.

These bunch seems to be close. They comment and likes each other's instagram post. It really made me happy for some reason.

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Lee joong gi is so beautiful I can't even ??

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Because I like giving myself grief, I thought about it and my ideal rundown for the imminent death scene goes something like this:

Eun gets shot by Yo’s arrow after witnessing Soon-deok die in his arms.

He looks up at So, whose sword is raised. Looks back down again at Soon-deok, who is covered in blood.

Eun begins choking on his own blood. So looks horrified at his younger brother dying in front of him. Eun ekes out painfully: “So hyung-nim, please send me off with Soon-deok.”

So does the deed. Everybody cries. Jung hates him for life. This sets the stage for So’s future tussle for the throne.

CRIES why do the guileless kids have to suffer the worst fates?

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Every week I tell myself that I will wait till all the episodes are out in order to save me some heartache and every week I end up a little heartbroken. This drama is so good (though there are some things that could be better, I.e Soo trusting So more).
I wish, perhaps in vain, that the 10th prince and his wife have a happy ending ? And that So is not forced to murder them in order to save those he considers his people. I wish all the episodes were out already, this wait is killing me slowly!!!!
Btw, I love ❤️ Kang Haneul but I am starting to hate and pity his character. He was so good at first but he's going a little crazy now, killing brothers and all. I wish he would get is comeuppance sooner rather than later.

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i feel you girl. I would never ever again watching drama that is still airing. It's just frustrating passing rest of weekend wondering, worried, heartbroken. It's not good for my heart. Not to mention I am following two (!) dramas. I am just hoping this month will end up quickly. I need some closure.

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I think I've identify the major problem with the show and the its an existential one. It's not the writing - which I think @patpat has proven to be well executed in the terms of the 2 causal timelines. The characters are well drawn too.

The real issue does lie in the editing of the story and the broadcast format which makes it very difficult to retain all this information. I think if this were somehow a Netflix show, we'd be putting the piece together a lot faster than waiting from week to week. Traditionally, Kdrama provide this information in a iterative way (that is, over and over again) and this one doesn't. I think that's what's causing a lot of confusion for the audience.

I really think if we were bingeing this show, it would make a lot more sense.

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Agreed. I also think typical kdramas have somewhat self-contained episodes. Each episode is a little story that can somewhat stand on its own. Not so with ML:SHR. There are too many plots, characters, and threads to keep in mind.

Plus, I think the director really excels in subtle details and quiet moments. He does individual scenes very well, but somehow coherently stringing them together is a challenge.

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I'm not sure it would make a lot more sense but I do believe the emotions it elicits, big-time, would counterbalance its sometimes less than logical scenes if we could binge watch it. I'm planning to do just that when it ends.

I also gave up watching this as a normal kdrama some time ago. It seems to be creating myth, not history, so while its themes and emotions are "true" often put into play by archetypical (as opposed to stereotypical) characters and motivations, its linear, logical "truth" suffers. This difference often leaves a kind of ambiguous abyss at the centre, which the audience has to fill in with their own imaginations, their own logic, in order to come up with the more linear story we're accustomed to, and I think this is evidenced by the huge amount of discussion of even the smallest plot points on this forum and others.

Moreover, within this dysjunction, Su herself is being asked to do this - to feel and understand So, for instance, instead of react to what she knows is historical fact.

This episode highlighted this point a lot, I think. The Gwangjong of history that Su knows is a strange juxtaposition of reformer and tyrant, known for liberating slaves on one hand and killing relatives on the other. But what do we see? What does she? That the Gwangjong of history was not the psychopathic killer history has sometimes painted him but a strong though vulnerable prince whose actions are understandable when put into context.

In this episode, we see people at the outdoor bar talking about the bloodthirsty 4th prince as hunting dog out to kill Prince Eun. In effect, we see his 'formal' reputation from history being built. But we know that So is trying to save Eun while not jeopardizing Su, Ji Mong and Baek Ah's lives as threatened by Yo.

Su, knowing this formal historical reputation, the 'facts' about Gwangjong, has to be reminded by Soon Deok that what Su instinctively knows and feels about Wang So the man is more 'true' than the historical 'truth' she's been taught. Su might be a little slow to catch on but as soon as Soon Deok says these words, she recognizes this 'truth' for what it is.

Su is also held back from this recognition I think by knowing who Wang So was when he entered the palace from Shinju. Not a psychopath but certainly verging on the sociopathic - ruthless, antisocial, thoughtless, ambitious, manipulative and arrogant. Very much like Yeon Hwa in some respects - survive, conquer, rule - to counterbalance the powerlessness they've felt all their lives.

What's made the difference for So aside from the remnants of an innate, suppressed decency is Hae Su.

I'd submit that Goryeo without Su would never have a Yo as king, because So would have made sure he died without her softening influence. Moreover, without Su's influence, all the nastiness that Yo is inflicting could very well have been inflicted by So instead. What we see in Wook and Yo are sides to So's character...

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Contd...

That never manifest themselves - in So - because of Su's existence in Goryeo. They manifest in these other characters instead, once again directly or indirectly through the existence of Su in Goryeo and her influence on So's character - that he has one person by his side who understands him for who he is in spite of his reputation (that's why the coming betrayal of that for him will be so hard).

Ji Mong has made it plain that the stars in Goryeo are misleading - they show a slightly different future, one without Yo as king. The big variable here is, of course, Su. She is changing that past what-should-have-been, into the historical past that she knows as a modern day Korean, where Gwangjong is factually seen as a tyrant, while learning those 'facts' are not 'truths' at all.

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It seems to be creating myth, not history, so while its themes and emotions are “true” often put into play by archetypical (as opposed to stereotypical) characters and motivations, its linear, logical “truth” suffers.

Moreover, within this dysjunction, Su herself is being asked to do this – to feel and understand So, for instance, instead of react to what she knows is historical fact.

Oh my goodness, I SO LOVE this post of yours, @Barbrey! You say so lucidly what I suspected but couldn't quite grasp or put into words. I think Su does suffer from cognitive dissonance, which influences her actions. But, you elucidate her situation so well!!

I knew there were progressional/logical problems, but I couldn't pinpoint the problem, but you obviously have in this post!!! I just want to read it over and over and over again! \^o^/

So much more clarity now!

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Thanks PG. It also plays very well with what you say above about the director giving us great scenes but not stringing them together very well. I still see this as an editing problem because they could do a much better job of this for sure, but there also seem to be script and directing choices that fundamentally emphasize and privilege the mythic/emotional progression over the historical/rational, so this observation of yours shows us one way the drama is doing that.

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All this to say, coming back full circle to the premise, I'm watching this drama more for its timeless, mythical, emotional 'truths' rather than its logical, linear, factual ones. Like Su has to learn to do regarding So, I've privileged my emotional reaction to over my rational one to this drama. It allows me a lot more enjoyment of the series if nothing else!

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ALL OF THIS. Once I put together your water goddess/unification myth with the two future casual timelines, the show completely clicked into place for me. I'm excited to see new episodes and where they take this mythic leaning. Also to recognize that Hae Su is difficult as protagonist because she does serve that role as a Steward rather than Action Hero.

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Thanks seltzerwater! We're so often on the same page. Where is this two causal timelines posted - I seem to have missed it?

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This reminds me so much of Back to the future when Micheal J. Fox goes back and changes the past and the future that he had seen through his eyes growing up had changed completely. I hope that when Soo comes back to the 21st century, she has some back bone to stand up to betrayals and fall in love with the right guy.

As I see, she is already standing up to Yo, and Yeon hwa and standing up for her love and that makes her stronger.

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LOL Goryeo Back to the Future!

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So much I missed on page two. Great analyses by all. I think my own interpretation is slightly different from patpat's because of her very first vision. She herself saw all the kings even though she didn't actually remember them from her history lessons. She saw the king die in bed, Mu die in water, Yo die with a knife in his hand, and then a faceless Gwangjong - who could be Wook or So at that point. In effect, almost from the moment she arrives, she becomes the variable that changes the past from what-should-have been according to Ji Mong's astrology back then and resets it into the history that all Koreans know. And my contention (same as patpat's) is that that's a very good thing. Otherwise we'd have seen So becoming king earlier but enacting the same bloodthirstiness as Yo, the same manipulations as Wook, and likely the kingdom imploding instead of So's reign stabilizing it. Moreover, by saving So from himself, and enhancing his innate goodness merely by believing it existed despite his reputation, she gives the two of them a chance as lovers sooner in a reincarnated state. He's already condemned to a thousand years and some of waiting to be reunited with her; how much longer that would be if he carried out those actions of Yo's and Wook's! Some of patpat's argument via her other visions is also convincinv, however; I think I see that as more places of minor pivot or perspective. We're pretty close in our interpretations whatever the case, and I'll wait to see what happens before confirming in my own mind.

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Whoa, Wang So is doomed for a thousand years of waiting to be reunited with Hae Su. This makes me unbearably sad (again, mythic not logical reaction). Wow, if this is the ending we're getting, it would be a Tristan/Isolde level of tragedy and sadness - truly a romantic tale that transcends time.

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Ha! I'm taking this from when the general tells So he might be forgiven for killing the monks, but it will take a thousand years.

And also, of course, my contention that these two have been born before Goryeo - mythic lovers, man!

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@Seltzerwater
Whoa, Wang So is doomed for a thousand years of waiting to be reunited with Hae Su. This makes me unbearably sad (again, mythic not logical reaction). Wow, if this is the ending we’re getting, it would be a Tristan/Isolde level of tragedy and sadness – truly a romantic tale that transcends time.

@Barbrey
Ha! I’m taking this from when the general tells So he might be forgiven for killing the monks, but it will take a thousand years.

Well! It just so happens Hae Soo/Go Ha Jin is from 1,000 into the future. Mere coincidence? *side-eyes show*

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Yeah, @jamie, that's why I connected them together!

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@Barbrey

I know; I was being a little silly. :)

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Hello @Barbrey, thank you for reading my comment on page 2. I always admire your analysis whether it's about the symbolism or the story itself, so I'm glad to find that our interpretation seem to be pretty close.

About her very first premonition, I still believe it has something to do with the wrist cutting, because it was only after that eventful incident that the premonitions started appearing and she suddenly "remembered" that Gwangjong was the 4th king. She spent the entire 5 episodes not having any visions whatsoever so something big must have happened when she finally had them. I'd say she did take her first step into changing the history the moment she offered So her sympathy, but it would all go to waste if she married the king. Only on that moment she cut her wrist her role as the variable was really established; a whole new, different set of future with her as the variable was formed and some crucial events from that newly set future came to her as the premonitions.

I've got some theories in my mind about how the whole story is playing, but I'll wait for the story to unfold a bit further before I can confirm anything. I wish the show won't disappoint us though.

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Hi @patpat - just saw this response now, sorry it took me so long to get back to you. When did she have that first vision of the four kings? I thought it was much earlier than the wrist cut so I'll have to go back to see because that makes the difference to my own analysis.

Anyway, that was a great analysis of yours whatever the case! I think the bottom line for us is that you see Su as being able to change things from the history she already knows, whereas I see her being able to reinterpret that history but she is in fact changing the probable future in the stars at the time into the history she knows.

This makes a huge difference and I would much rather go with your interpretation, though I have read that the original BBJX aligns more with mine, i.e the predestination paradox or causal loop. With your interpretation, Su could marry So and live a fairly contented life in Goryeo, maybe have kids that continue the dynasty, and the future she knew would also be different if she were ever to return to it. With mine, that's not the case, and the only happy ending I can foresee is one that takes place in the future.

I also take my interpretation a bit from my sci-fi reading in that if a character travels back to change things, often history fights back to maintain its original 'plot' so the future remains the same even though the time traveller has deviated it a little in the past.

In that case, Su really can't change the future, but what she can change is Wang So, so they get a chance to meet again.

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@patpat - oh and I hope the next few episodes give us a few more clues because I'd love to discuss with you again! Believe it or not, I'm not watching for LJK primarily, but wanting to know how this time travel plot resolves itself is the primary hook for me other than the torrent of emotionz this drama puts me through. I will be so upset if we don't get a satisfactory answer like what happened with W.

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I agree. 2 episodes per week make me feel super disjointed, and it doesn't help that every single episode has disjointed scenes itself lol. I wonder if they just mess up or they really expect the audience to analyze every little bit detail. If you have time and are willing to put some deep thoughts on this drama, it's actually a very beautiful, well written, well planned, and well, not really well executed drama. They even have their hands on symbolism (thanks @Barbrey for pointing it out). As more episodes unveiled, we start seeing the purpose and significance of the scenes that we might think as unimportant before. As the story unfolding, I come to appreciate the writer more and more.

This drama requires you to think deeply, but people will only do it if they're invested enough (like Beanies here lol). The problem is not everybody has the time and will to analyze, and for most people, this requirement is a major setback. People watch this, feel confused, judge this as a bad drama, and leave. And we wonder why the rating never breaks the single digit.

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I'm so confused with Soo after this eps. When I read the recap and comments, I tried to cut her some slack, thinking that the reason she hid the truth from So was because she tried to protect both So and Eun. But after watching this eps w/ subtitle, I'm not sure though.

I don't have any problem with her hiding Eun from So for both parties' safety. What I can't stand is how easy she got swayed by SD's words. If it wasn't for King Taejo's voiceover, I'd still think that she only sweet talked SD. I wanna believe that when she said she had her reason, then she stayed firm with her decision. King Taejo's voiceover and her sudden agreement to write letter to Jimong got me baffled.

Now I can't help but think that it is the trust issue indeed that made her lying to him. If it's true, then I'll be really mad. I really try to give you chance Soo, I do. Please someone tell me that there's still hope for this character TT

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@Junikills....There's still hope for this character.....Remember that Soo's motivation is to love and protect So foremost and the Prince's too since if the Prince's get hurt , that would hurt So too, and deeply. Ofcourse Soo trusts So completely, back up to the scene where Yo tells So to choose between the dead King or Soo and Soo simply closes her eyes and takes a deep breath...she doesn't plead for her life, or even tells So don't do it for me....she simply puts her life on So's hands and trusts his decision. This scene tells me that to save his honor she is willing to die, no reprimands from her, she was closing her eyes because she knows she is in So's hands and she knows he loves her...it's complete acceptance and surrender not an easy thing for Soo who has been betrayed time and time again by lovers. It shows how far So and Soo have come.

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Yes, I very much agree about the level of So-Soo's relationship right now, and I also believed that by hiding Eun from So she was trying to protect them both, which is why I prefer her to stand firm with her decision because she actually got that very strong reason!! When she told SD she had her own reason for hiding the fact from So, I didn't blame her. But when SD told her she should have trusted the one she loved, then she remembered Taejo's voiceover to her to live in present, and suddenly she changed her decision, I can't help but feel that it was all about trust issue and not about protecting So at all. I feel that the writer have made Soo's character very inconsistent sometimes.

Soo's voiceover will HELP SO MUCH in explaining her character to us. I'm frustrated on how much effort we have to give in order to understand her.

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@Junkikills, ...the way I see it in this scene it's a little like what So tells Baekha about Eun.....you don't trust me? You really think I'm going after Eun. Baekha tells him, it's not that I don't trust YOU hyungnim, it's that I know there's a tyrant on the throne who will do anything to manipulate and pressure you to do what they want, and that means we are living in scary times....Soo understands that So has the impossible task of protecting all of his people: Jing Mong, Baekha, Soo....and he loves her so much he is willing to even give up on his honor to save her (when he chooses her over the dead King). Notice her horror stricken face when he kneels and starts saying mansa,mansa...It's a freaking difficult choice for Soo....she's afraid So has been threathened by Yo , maybe something along the lines if you don't kill Eun , Soo will die the most painful death....so not knowing how "compromised So might be, she chooses to take/ slip Eun quietly away, that way So isn't pushed into a corner and forced to kill his own brother again because of her... the Princess(Eun's wife, and voiceover) are really reminding her, that despite the premonition saying So does indeed kill Eun...she needs to let So make that choice, and know he will make the best choice, or be smart enough not to outsmart the set outcome / the premonition. Does anyone understand what she wrote to the Astrologer?

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Sorry miswrote this line....She needs to let So make that choice, and know he will make the best choice or at least be smart enough to outsmart the set outcome/premonition.

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"…she needs to let So make that choice, and know he will make the best choice..."

Well, probably that's the reason, she realized she needed to give So his own agency to choose. I think you pretty much convinced me lol. Though it seemed too late already.. I also don't know what she wrote to Jimong and whether he read it or not. Must wait till Monday though ugh...

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Ur username ?

But I agree that Soo was very frustrating this ep. She trusted So as her friend and even said before that the visions didn't happen yet but now she's scared of him again because of that?

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I had to keep pausing this episode because I didn't want to see Eun and his wife get killed. And now, since they're still alive at the end, I have to do the same thing next week! They weren't my favorite characters but they were so sweet in this episode and I hate to see such innocents be sacrificed. Yo and Wook - you'll get yours!!!!!

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The hint that Yeonhwa will be the one who will tell So everything about your past relationship was so strooooong, Soo-ya.. She knows everything about your past and you know nothing good will ever come from her mouth so please please please just tell everything to So already ;___;

How I feel like smacking some senses into Soo's head. She should understand now that there is a female snake lurking behind, ready to throw some poison and snatch his man away. If she thought it was okay to hide it from So, she'd better change her mind now.

I wouldn't feel sorry if she didn't and So ended up with Yeonhwa though. Yeonhwa clearly told her the hint and if she's that dense to not get it, she doesn't deserve So.

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I've been thinking about this issue too..what will happen if So knows about it later.. will it damage their relationship..

I've watched CDrama, the reason why RX didn't tell 4th is because she know how ruthless 4th with his brothers, especially 8th, so she doesn't want to add fuel to his rage and do more damage than it should be, the warning that RX gave to 8th is far more detail than Soo did, RX can tell who 4th allies and to put extra careful around them.. this warning make 8th to change the plan and attack 4th (Originally he want to attack CP or 5th prince..cmiw), the attack create big damage to 4th and led to 4th to take revenge. 4th hated 8th so much.. the information about RX/8th together plus RX warning against 4th that what make 4th feel betrayal and damaging their relationship

In this story .. I am not sure it will have the same course.. cause I don't think it should create such a big damage.. Soo warning seems weak, and Wook doesn't attack So directly cause of it, so far he just pondering over and over against the warning .. well I just have to wait and see ..right.?

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Yes, I hope so. Reading your explanation, now I see that this drama took different route than C-BBJX. Wook attacked Moo instead of So, and so far I don't see him doing any real damages to So other than trying to kill him during fake rebellion (failed) and persuading King to exile him (failed again). I also put much faith in So's feeling towards Soo, given the solid foundation of trust they're building (lets just forget abt Soo in eps 15), I really wish So will understand.

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Yeah, Yeonhwa openly threatened to tell So all about her relationship with Wook but I don't understand why Soo is so not scared? Or does her saying to So that they won't ask each other questions mean she isn't afraus?

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Also this is the first episode where I didn't want Eun to just go and die or shut up and get off my screen. That's all because of his wife, she was so sweet and pretty, she should have picked a less stupid prince to like but at least Eun was nice to her this ep and it was touching when he ran after her at the end. Z. Hera did well! Even Baekhyun looked cute with her.

But there was still not enough of Lee Jun Ki. There is never enough of Lee Jun Ki.

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Sorry, this was supposed to be a separate comment, not stuck to your comment. Sorry!

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I'm really really terrified about the upcoming ending of this drama. Most likely I will cry my eyes out, 'cause it's more and more evident, that the ending will be devastating. WS is devoted to HS in such a primal way, he'll go insane if he loses her.
Moreover, he always detested his father for his decision to throw away people he loved for the good of the country, but in the end WS will maybe have a similar future. HY as his queen would become a second queen Yoo. It would be cruel to loose HS as his anchor, after getting the taste of this little bliss in his rouge life.
On top of that, the indicaton that he'll meet HS in the future isn't compelling to me. Without his memory he wouldn't be the same person after all.

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Could there be more to Hae-Su/WW's past that we, the audience, do not know but Yong Hwa does? Her warning to Hae Su gives me that impression.

Is that how she will endear herself to Wang So, by telling her about Hae Su?

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When I first watched without the subtitle I thought Wang Yo was hitting on Hae Su during the tea scene. I wouldn't be surprised though if in the future he would. She is pretty and fiesty and that turns him on, plus he is evil, so harassing such a girl would be appealing to him.

Evil Eomma is slowly being disappointed in her beloved son, he doesn't really have it to be king, he is just all swagger.

I really wish this is a 24 or even 30 episode drama, so many characters and relationships that could have been fleshed out and explored more. However, that would be two more months of my life in limbo :O

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I don't think he finds her attractive at all; he's the least interested in her of all the princes, proving to my mind his unfitness to be king. She's the holy grail.

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She's the holy grail

"It's just a flesh wound."

"Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"

"Welcome, brave sir knight! Welcome to to Castle Anthrax!"

"Who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see:

What is your name?
What is your quest?
What is your favourite colour?"

(Sorry, I just couldn't help myself)

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hahaha, I never thought I'd see a Monty Python reference here!

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To PineappleGonzhu; We are in dire need of some light entertainment. Thanks for the levity.

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I get your point about yo-su. I can totally see this plot in other drama, but i don't think they will go that way in here. That role has landed in YH. But it is interesting that Yo decided to keep her in palace. I want to see more how he used her to drive So.

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@Barbrey, "She’s the holy grail." LOL....love this.....I've been wondering about this does Wook or So or Baekah suspect Soo has visions, or at least some understanding of the future? I was surprised when the King called her in and told her flat out, "ok who are you?" I pretty much figured out you're too different and not one of us....will anyone know So is from the future or figure it out before the show ends? and who would be more likely to know this first aside from the Astrologer that is who I think already knows.

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Honestly, everything the king said to her in that scene surprised me. I think we're supposed to take it that he's been around Ji Mong for so long, he's somehow alerted to her being like him, but it still came out of nowhere.

No, I don't think any of them know except Ji Mong that she has visions, a purpose unknown to herself, or isn't exactly who she seems to be. I have never seen the original so don't know if Ruoxi says anything to her 4th prince. Su might need to explain herself to Wang So when he finds out she warned Wook about him - it might come out then.

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I've watched the original, so spoiler alert for anyone not wanting to know about c-version.......

In the C-version Roxi becomes best friends with 13th Prince ((BaeKha) one night he "kidnaps" her out of 8th Prince's home and they both spend the night getting drunk....this inevitably leads to all sort of truths being spoken that night, and Roxi pretty much spills the beans on where she comes from....also, 4th Prince figures it out too.......

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Did Eun and his wife actually consummate their marriage in this episode? I was only able to stream the One TV version and it kept lagging, haven't had the chance to watch it again. Anyway, Eun herded Soon Deok out of the baths and he was doing this little eyebrow wagging thing which was kind of suggestive? Someone enlighten this confused soul. Thank you, Beanies!

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*live stream the One TV version

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Well they don't show them doing it but I thought it was pretty clear they did the deed.

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Lol the things that we wonder about. Haha. I hope So and Su do something soon.

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Yes, the deed was done...they are married after all....but this is why 10th Prince says to Soo "I am her awesome person now, she only has me"...10th Prince is finally able to accept his wife's heart fully.....

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http://dramatic-gwynne.tumblr.com/post/151711349479/yeonhwa-is-my-absolute-fave-for-me-her-storyline

Another one I really like!

Also - wrt to the talk about women not necessarily having to be *evil* to be strong and courageous e.g. Queen Seondeok and Empress Ki, that is true, and Yeon Hwa uses unorthodox methods but it doesn't make Yeon Hwa a *weak* character (also just a note but YH doesn't have that many allies tbh)

If using a brother and his wife to desperately save herself from a marriage and the customs and conventions that are stacked against her, from her point of view, it's completely ~justifiable because well...politics has never been kind to her (or her clan) either.

IMO I always welcome female characters that aren't necessarily good. I completely understand why people resent YH and that's fine because it's their own view of their character, but I also wonder how many people resent her because she isn't a completely *good* female character and does evil things that makes people uncomfortable (not saying that men killing people for the throne doesn't make people uncomfortable, but y'know what I mean...)

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Yeonhwa is the character i'd love to hate. I understand where she's coming from with her actions and her reasoning makes sense and man, if only she was born a man, perhaps she would outsmart all other princes..

So, as much as I hate her actions, I just.. can't really wholeheartedly hate her, because everything she did was with reasons. Her goal was simply to live without having others threaten her or her family

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Oh gosh, I hope episode 16 airs on Monday!!

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Why wouldn't it?

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another baseball matches for 3 consecutive weeks, every Monday starting from last week! we are lucky last week match finished early.

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sorry, not yet 'last week'. *this week

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Ok thank you, Straws and Cherryarrow!

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Baseball match every Monday for 3 weeks starting last Monday... hopefully the game finishes early or rains lol.

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Well, that can be arranged.

Prince Wang So, please proceed to the rain worshipping altar. Dont forget to use the leaves/branch with leaves when sprinkling water during the event too. BB cream is a necessity now, I need not mention it.

We must have our episode air or our FanKingdom's citizen would be pissed!

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Oof, the defeated look on So's face when he kneeled in front of Yo was heart wrenching and even when he did that for Su I can't believe that she still didn't trust him to tell him about Eun. At first I thought she hid that bit from him because she didn't want him to be used to kill Eun for her, but the visions just show us that she actually feared him, that's just so sad, he's been nothing but honest with her, and she's even seen him break down in tears in front of her when he "thought" he killed Yo, so why Su, why?!

I was so, so frustrated with Eun and Seon-deok at their bathhouse scenes, I mean they should be scared for their lives, there is a king who has ordered them killed and yet they had no regard to that and were happily playing games?! WTH!! They weren't being careful at all for runaways and I kept thinking that they'll get caught, it was really blood-boiling stupid of them to do that!

I'm late I know, but I just wanted to say this much!

Thanks Heads for the recap.

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@azzo,To add to that scene..."Oof, the defeated look on So’s face when he kneeled in front of Yo was heart wrenching ...."the heart wrenching part when both So and Soo have literally been brought down to their knees by the Palace plotting....one moment they had this Kingdom under Mo and now it's crumbled and both So and Soo are trapped in the net of intrigue....but in this moment of defeat it is Soo who won't let So stay on his knees, she stands up first and simply won't let So take the blame for the fall ..."This is all my fault, this all happened because of me... I'm sorry ....and that little pause before saying his name....So." She always addresses him as his highness in later episodes....and he realizes she is still trying to protect him by taking the blame and that simply makes him regain his strenght....oooffff.....it speaks volumes to how they have learned to put each other above all the things that sorround them or take place around them...I just want them to continue to do this no matter how many times things continue to fall apart around them, because by hanging on to each other above all else they will weather the storms ahead....

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“Yes. I did think of her. It is because of her. Su said I tried to have everything for myself, and that that was wrong. But what of it? I tried to protect my family and my heart. What’s so wrong about that? Mother, you told me to live a proper life, and I lived my life that way. So… why am I still lonely?”

Maybe this is why I've been drawn to his character more than the others. Wook shows the vulnerability of humans to wickedness. I can easily relate my self to his disappointment, jealousy, ambition, his cynical because all of that qualities are inherent if not intrinsic to humanity. In more irony, his family that has been his ground for his morality is also the reason that evoking his internal flaws. For me Wook is not a villain, but he is a "tragic hero".

~there's a truth behind a cry, there's a cry behind a lie~

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@junah

I'm so glad that you mentioned that scene specifically. I felt totally gutted at Wook's speech. I actually don't hate Wook at all, I sympathize with him precisely because (as you said) he's a tragic anti-hero.

He's the classic example of someone who always did "the right thing", but never got what he truly wanted: in this case, love. So, he decides "what the hell, I'll just do what I want to get what I want from now on."

And you're right, that kind of wickedness is intrinsic to humanity, which is probably why Wang So and Hae Su are "heroes" - because they work against that natural default position.

Doing the right thing isn't always easy, and actually, it may take us awayfrom our heart's desires rather than towards them. The heroes are the ones who do it anyway, just for the sake of righteousness. Ouch.

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That scene where Soo is carrying the tea tray and confronts Wook....I can't help but compare it to the scene in Star Wars when Queen Amidala confronts Anniken Skywalker , it's heart wrenching in the exact same way because you can see Queen Amidala is still unable to understand how dark Anniken has become and suddenly it's right there ...this person now is able to carry out deeds that actively hurt others, he is a destroyer in a very Machiavellian sense and yet, Anniken continues to tell Queen Amidala he is not wrong at all it is all had to be done for the need to attain greater power......

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continued....at the end of their conversation he even hurts Queen Amidala the great love of his life...she is the sacrifice left at the altar and in this moment his tranformation is complete, and Darth Vader is born.....so seeing Wook all dressed in black in the next scene ....Wow.....as was mentioned earlier Darth Wook is born....wonder if heavy breathing will follow?

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I have to say, even at its messiest and sloppiest, the romance between Wook and Su was actually convincing, believable and not (on an acting/technical level) cringeworthy.

Which is more than I can ever say for Anakin and Padme ("I hate sand", anyone?)

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@pogo

No no! The prequel-episodes-that-must-not-be-named. Oh, have mercy....such terrible terrible script writing and directing = even the actors couldn't save it.

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@PineappleGongzhu - my first ever fandom was Star Wars, and the prequels managed to taint that love so horribly, it was sad. But I like that the entire fandom has cursed George Lucas for it for the last 17 years, haha.

It did not help that Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman are not very good actors anyway (I know Portman has an Oscar but she's terrible in any kind of sci-fi/fantasy, this may be blasphemy but I'll take IU over her any day)

(seriously, thank all the Force ghosts for episode VII, I couldn't believe what I was seeing when I went for it - a GOOD Star Wars movie made in my lifetime!)

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On the topic of Wook, when I take a step back from the recent Machiavellian maneuvering he's engaged in recently, he's really a tragic character when you think of it no? I mean, I still have little sympathy for him, given that he MADE these choices, he chose this path, and while I understand he felt he had no other recourse, at a certain point he became dishonest about it and his motivations, shades of grey as you will. This is both good and bad-if he didn't have these layers he would be more one dimensional like Yo who's desires are far simpler, but there's the rub-Yo is at least upfront about his desires, while Wook lies to himself, lies to Su, lies to his family...

I think when Myung-Hee died, that was essentially the beginning of the end of Wook's 'pure' life and the start of his path to being Darth Wook...

And lol all this talk of the Dark Side, it was inevitable that Star Wars comparisons were going to be forthcoming but..don't kill me, I actually am one of the few that thought the prequels had their merits? *ducks tomato* We can't (we should't lol, we'll be off topic forever!!!) go into all their deficiencies here, but at the very least the Star Wars prequels showed us the great and terrible things people do for love. It's nothing new, but its one of those story telling tropes I adore the most, and MLSHR definitely has this too. Wook's feelings for HS got him started on this path and then his hidden desire for the throne got involved. So, too, is being controlled by his love and desire to protect his people and we all know what's coming down the pike for him.

Can't wait to see what's in store, but that sounds like I'm eager to get my heart demolished, doesn't it? Three more weeks of show left guys. The withdrawals will be hell with this one *sobs*

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@IvoryLight

Oh, I totally agree with you, Wook is a very tragic figure. To bring in a TOTALLY unrelated show, Javert in Les Miserables is another tragic anti-hero. I know most people think of him as the villain, but he actually isn't. He's a good guy, and upright guy who is trying to do his job, convinced that he's on the side of righteousness, and Valjean is on the side of wickedness. The problem with Javert is in his worldview there was never any room for repentance and redemption.

Wook suffers from the same thing, but rather than just an inaccurate view of reality, as you said, he is self-deceiving. He just cannot say "I want this so badly, I will do anything to have it."

I agree that Myung-Hee was a pure and good influence on him, however unappreciated.

Wook and So make good foils for each other, because they are motivated by love, but how they choose to deal with the difficult decisions that come their way is what sets them apart. For the most part, So is willing to sacrifice himself before he hurts someone else. Not so with Wook.

I think we are all masochists who are watching this show. I mean, putting up with the editing problems, leaps of logic...and we are still addicted to our screens from Mon-Wed. I'm just going to DIE once this show ends. I'm so frightened they will not only have a sad ending, but a really bad one, too.

And don't even talk about withdrawal.....I'm having a panic attack just thinking about the withdrawal symptoms.

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@PineappleGongzhu absolutely. I wonder if Wook has any moments of self reflection at all? When So asked him what happened to change him so much, homeboy didn't even bat an eyelid and smoothly answered that he was just trying to survive and yet, from his breakdown with his mom and sister, we can see that these still waters run deeper than ever. I've seen spoilers for the C-drama floating about, and I wonder if they're going to go that route too and have HS be the impetus for him doing one last decent thing just like she was the impetus that started him off on this path in the first place? That would be beautiful irony if it happens.

Excellent point about Wook and So being foils..it's even more clear in instances where Wook wants to be appear 'flawless' and keep all his machinations on the DL and yet So is willing or is forced to put all his most 'evil' deeds out there in public (re: facing Yo and taking on the burden of potentially having kill his hyung instead of having Jung bear the burden, and now, whatever thing he'll have to do in regards to Eun and SD)...So has longed for his family his whole life, and he's made his own family of people he loves and to protect them, he has to sacrifice pieces of his soul for it. Meanwhile Wook kinda..willingly donates his to the dark side.

Praying to all the drama gods that the ending episodes are along the lines of episodes 5, 10, 11 etc. versus the hot mess of 6. I will still love the show regardless, there really isn't any turning back for me now but if we get an ending like in City Hunter or Faith...listen I know there's merit in leaving it open to interpretation what happens but there has been enough pain and torture and speculation in the whole damn thing already that a good, satisfying and NON-HEARTBREAKING ending would be great thanks.

I feel you on the withdrawals..we really should start prepping ourselves, there must be multi-step process on how to let go? Can we have a finale party with wine and tissues??

PS: how do you bold out words? internet noob here hahah

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@IvoryLight

Okay, so it's a bit hard to explain because you have to use code. But, the moment you write the code (in order to tell you what it is), rather than displaying it, it will just follow your command.

So, use the code below, but take out the "+" that I'll put in:

add text here, then to unbold

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Rats, sorry, @IvoryLight, my explanation above removed the code. But, google "how to bold in html" and it will tell you to use the "strong" command.

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APineappleGongzhu ..hopefully that worked?

Thanks for the info!

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@PineappleGongzhu - OH MY GOD THE WITHDRAWAL. I'm dreading the end and everything before it already, we are so screwed.

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@ivorylight

I find myself waiting almost as breathlessly as So for her to smile. She really lights everything up with her smile, and it's what I've missed the most in the last handful of episodes.

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@IvoryLight - I think that's the genius of Wook (and of Kang Haneul in playing him) - we can see so clearly how he's led himself down the path he's on, and know that what he's done is awful, but still retain a grain of sympathy for the prince who was once the gentle, moderate good older brother to the princes and a lover to Su because that person's still there, just buried under layers of indecision, self-delusion and repression.

Seriously, there's nothing like a sympathetic antihero to really make you feel bad, and I applaud the skills of the actors who do it well (Chae Soo-bin and Park Bo-gum last year, KHN now).

As for the SW prequels, I will say this much - I think the trajectory of how a hero turns to the Dark Side was a great one.....in theory. It's the execution that pissed everyone off lol.

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@pogo KHN has been absolutely killing it. I enjoyed him during the brief time I watched Heirs but this (-and his running man appearances, oh my lord, I will never remember 'plaster tower' without giggling) has put him firmly in my person of interest category. I'm really curious to see where they will take his character, I think it's one of the advantages of not having watched the original hehe.

Re: the SW prequels...I think we can safely agree that the world breathed a sigh of relief when Jar Jar didn't show up in TFA hehe.

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Also wanted to add in my kudos for IU-she's far from the weakest link acting wise in this drama and I've been enjoying the range she's showed us in the last couple of episodes.

Hopefully it won't be all doom and gloom so our characters won't constantly be in tears or screaming? Yes yes foolish hopes.

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@ junah:
“‘Yes. I did think of her. It is because of her. Su said I tried to have everything for myself, and that that was wrong. But what of it? I tried to protect my family and my heart. What’s so wrong about that? Mother, you told me to live a proper life, and I lived my life that way. So… why am I still lonely?’”

“Maybe this is why I’ve been drawn to his character more than the others. Wook shows the vulnerability of humans to wickedness. I can easily relate my self to his disappointment, jealousy, ambition, his cynical because all of that qualities are inherent if not intrinsic to humanity. In more irony, his family that has been his ground for his morality is also the reason that evoking his internal flaws. For me Wook is not a villain, but he is a ‘tragic hero.’”

I have been thinking about this scene, when Wook tearfully says to his mother and sister that he is burdened by family responsibility, and all he ever wanted was to protect his family and have Hae Soo, so why is he still so lonely? I felt really sad for him…but at the same time his self-pity, in the context of the terrible things he’s done, really rubbed me the wrong way.

It occurs to me that Wook is really a “Nice Guy (Trademark).” He thinks that he’s done all the “right things,” so he should get the girl, he should have the happiness—and that’s just not how life works. None of us are guaranteed the love partner of our desires or even any love partner at all, much less happiness. But he takes that basic (sad) reality of life and uses it as an excuse to do some really unforgivable things, out of a sense of being done wrong by life, like slowly poisoning his brother, causing him to experience years of torment in the process, because Nice Guys (TM) who don’t get what they think they deserve sometimes turn very nasty indeed.

A Nice Guy (TM) is not the same as a nice guy at all.

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I felt really sad for him…but at the same time his self-pity, in the context of the terrible things he’s done, really rubbed me the wrong way.

Ouch. THIS. You totally hit the nail on the head. Wook is still playing victim and he's still blaming others rather than take full responsibility for his actions or inactions.

Well said!

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Thank you! I think this is another way Wook and Yeon Hwa are alike. Although Yeon Hwa presents as a Mean Girl rather than a Nice Guy (TM), she, too, feels life has been unjust to her, and she uses that as an excuse to do, well, anything to anyone, regardless of whether or not they've done anything to her: poison people (Mu), set them up for torture and execution (Hae Soo), sell them out to certain death (Eun and Seon Deok), or use them in any way possible for an advantage (Wook, Yo, So). (The only exception to that I've seen is her mother.) As others have noted, she is already so corrupt with the power she has, it's hard to imagine how corrupt she'll be when she has the power of being queen.

In contrast to both Wook and Yeon Hwa, Hae Soo, who has had terrible things unjustly done to her as well, does not seek revenge, nor try to take things that do not belong to her. She does not think people are things for using, nor a means to an end.

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I know some people sympathized with Wook in that scene with his mom and Yeon Hwa but I thought it was the whiniest scene ever.

I blame Wook far more for poisoning that water and torturing his kind older brother for two years, than I do Yeon Hwa for betraying Eun. At least Yeon Hwa had a stake - she didn't want to be sold off in a miserable marriage and likely a horrible life - but what's Wook's stake? He's not about to die or be killed off or pushed into a horrible marriage if he doesn't betray his brother. He's already lost the girl. So what's his stake for doing something so horrible?

He's a passive-aggressive whiner. Whatever sympathy I once had for him disappeared with Ji Mong's cry of pain when CP Mu died.

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Yes, he is passive-aggressive, isn't he? (To Mu: "Shaaare the looad." Wait, no: that was Sam and Frodo with the Ring.) I think it is interesting that when he does act with pure aggression, the moments are so startlingly pure and decisive: the daggers winged out of nowhere, with deadly accuracy; the arrows shot precisely into the bullseye. Those are moments of air/sky/masculinity/yang.

I did feel sympathetic for him in that scene, and not just because he cries prettily: he really was feeling so sad and burdened and lonely. But that's still absolutely no excuse for what he did (and will do).

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I STARTED to feel sympathetic and suppressed it so it honestly just sounded like a huge whine to me. The guy's a monster. One thing I think they could have done better in the earlier episodes is give us a hint that he could change into one. Because this isn't just killing someone in your way, which maybe I could see him doing without any hints he had this in his character.. It's torturing someone terribly and Wook appears to have been there to see that torture every day. I never once got the sense he could change into this kind of person. I'm wondering at this point if he is actually insane but in a different way than his psychopathic brother Yo.

Ah, to be a prince in Goryeo!

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@Barbrey I think that's what makes it even worse, that Wook is the one who brought himself to this point.

He's become a monster, and he made himself one - but he CHOSE to do that, and to turn his back on Su for it, and somewhere inside him, the person he used to be still has regrets over what he is now. But it's too late. And I think that's always going to be the problem with Wook - he wants it all (the throne, the girl, the perception of him as a 'good' and 'proper' prince, husband, king's right hand, prospective king) but isn't willing to actually commit to putting anything first and just go with that.

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I kind of wonder if he did choose - i.e or did Su choose for him? I'm just musing here but it's based on the idea I posited above that history is fighting back against deviations Su introduces.

It's possible that original Hae Su's plotline was somewhat similar to modern Hae Su. She lived with Wook, fell in love with him, but couldn't marry him because the king took her for a concubine and she was never heard of again. I think the wrist cutting was so momentous because that's when modern Hae Su does something medieval Hae Su would never have done. Modern Hae Su had already unconsciously been making changes to our princes' personalities, and so small things were in motion beforehand to become large things, but the wrist-cutting cements them. As she herself said, she didn't know what came over her.

We're given no hint Wook would have been capable of the things he does later. We are, however, given every indication that So would have been despite his lingering loyalty to the CP.

This is what I mean about history fighting back. Su has influenced So to be a better person. Two very momentous things happen because of that: Yo lives and Wook turns bad, because the historical plotline demands that if So doesn't enact the terrible deeds, then someone else must, driving towards the same future as if the deviations didn't occur. As Einstein says, every action results in an equal reaction. Thus, every action Su takes saving So from himself results in an equal reaction from Wook in particular losing himself so subsequent events are reined in to keep the historical plotline in place.

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Still just watching mainly for Junki oppa but the story is pretty addicting that it is predictably unpredictable, if that makes sense.

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I haven't the slightest idea about the kind of ending we're gonna get... I am preparing myself for the worst and yet, still, hoping for the best.
If our OTP ship goes down in epic flames, I wish the show at least would give us a proper closure. I mean, after all it has put us through? Come on, Show, you owe us that.
And when (not IF, 'coz we all know it's gonna happen) they meet in the 21st century, I am not sure how but I wish So would somehow retain his Goryeo memories. He'd feel like a stranger (to me, at least) without them.

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I love, LOVE the instrumental OSTs of this show! Ugh, when are they going to release them? Gimme gimme

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@Coma, they are one of my very favorite things about the show too hehe.

I haven't found many of the background instrumentals that aren't actual songs, but youtube has these...enjoy!

Ep 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiZePgXUjzM&index=6&list=PLjvV2OLZmMuYJgr9QeDVk0_Yf27UcvFVh

Ep 11: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW-8nUEWPgk&list=PLjvV2OLZmMuYJgr9QeDVk0_Yf27UcvFVh&index=7

Actually just follow this person they have all the instrumentals I was able to find: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHnHvADHJM4moPtp7BuFowg/videos

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I can't stop thinking over the ending after reading the lyric of the last OST. I went to Soompi and everyone was talking about the ending of C-BBJX. My heart can't take it...

I blame the writer for making So's character so miserable, and for making his love for Soo much much more powerful than YZ-RX. I'm so emotionally invested over So, please just let him happy for the rest of his life after all the hardships you make him through, PD-nim T_______T

I don't know if I'll survive the goodbye scene and the ending if they follow C-BBJX. LJG will definitely kill those scenes and leave me bawling for weeks...

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For the sake of cute Seon-dook, I really hope they won't die. She deserves some happiness after all things she did for Eun.

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I think she will die because of the previews and plot/theme trajectory but I have to say I really hate that they give so much away with the previews like Yo coming back from the dead, and Eun and SD's death. They rob us of at least 50% of the emotions we should feel in those scenes, as well as robbing us of suspense we should feel.

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Agree @Barbrey!! The previews are too revealing. Starting with the first 6 minute one by Dramafever. It gave away so much and raised expectations too high. The episodes and editing do not live up to the potential that is set by the previews. This is why i'm left wanting so much more each episode.. feeling slightly disappointed, and then craving the next ..because this time.. this time it will live up to the expectations.

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I never saw the preview on DF so I came in with no expectations. What I liked about this drama right off the bat is that there was never a boring moment in it, and that has continued to date. Most dramas totally drag somewhere along the line, and while this one has been too sombre, or frustrating, or confusing or even a little stupid sometimes , it still has never bored me. I can't think of another drama I can say that about - even my fave of all time Healer was pretty slow in the first few episodes. So it has exceeded my expectations in that respect!

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So true! Its completely intriguing. I want to capture every detail while viewing. Even through all its issues, it is a favorite and I will be re-watching and recommending it.

I love reading the recaps and the contributions by all the commentators. I learn so much from reading this forum and then find myself watching episodes over again with different perspectives. Its been really entertaining. Like someone said before its an addiction.. going to be really hard to give up.

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But that's Joseon garb no? I don't think it has anything to do with this show. :(

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FAVORITE (non-romantic, for the most part) MOMENTS

I wanted to share fun squeal moments that has little (or no) connection with romance, but makes this show really fun to watch:

Episode 1: Go Ha Jin realises her skin is a lot nicer and her body more youthful after being placed in Hae Su’s body. Ha!

Episode 2: When Wang So first teases/threatens Hae Su that she will die if she insists he apologizes to her, but THEN alters his behavior entirely to be respectful when Lady Hae makes an appearance.

Episode 3: When Hae Su realizes the pick-up line “You were the first girl to ever treat me in that way” has been used for over 1,000 years. HAHA!

Episode 4: When Jung decides to refer to Hae Su as “Nooeui”, and Wang So is incredulous.

Episode 5: When Hae Su does the whole “bum wiggle” when Ji Mong claims he doesn’t recognize/know her, and Ji Mong mimicks her in mockery. I seriously LOVED this scene. I replayed it over and over.

Episode 6:
- Seeing Baek Ah ride behind So & Su as they escape on horseback through the woods (I just love battle buddy/big-younger brother tropes)

- Jung going to his mother to ask her to stop Hae Su’s marriage to the king: the way he whines “Mother! I know you can do it.” And flashes that charming little rascal smile at his mother, you know he’s been doing taking advantage of his youngest sibling status all his life

- When the king fumed loudly what Hae Su’s relationship with the princes were that 8th and 4th Prince dared to get involved. Hilarious daddy/king moment.

Episode 7:
- Wang So’s head flick of Hae Su
- Eun’s birthday party

Episode 8:
- Baek Ah causes Hae Su trouble with the other court ladies by pretending they were having a lovers’ tryst when they were actually discussing how Hae Su can reconcile with Wang So

- The LOOK on everyone’s faces when Wang So comes into the rain ritual ceremony sans mask with a perfectly lovely face. Take that, Queen SMSS!

Episode 9: General Park rejecting each prince Ji Mong and the king suggest until they are only left with 10th Prince. HAHA!

Episode 10: The way Lady Oh mothers Hae Su, advising her to leave the palace with Lady Oh to her hometown. Okay, not a funny scene, but a touching scene.

Episode 11: How Yeon Hwa blackmails the doctor to support her lie of ingesting poison. Daaamn, you go girl! If you’re going to be Evil Queen 2.0, just let it fly!

Episode 12: The part where Wook and So finally have it out (in words) after So’s failed marriage proposal. Wook says not to lead Hae Su on, So tells Wook that he was totally useless proving Hae Su’s innocence. Oh, burn!

Episode 13: The flashback when So remembers his father observing him from afar during his visit to Shinju to give him a new mask.

Episode 14: Baek Ah trolling Wang So for not getting Hae Su a birthday gift. The way Wang So tries to hide his jealousy is hilarious.

Episode 15:

- The epic boat race between Soon Deok...

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@PineappleGongzhu - this is so late, but I love all the moments you listed! Especially the episode 5 one where Su does the full-body shake while wining at Ji-mong (and who says IU can't do comedy?). And the episode 4 post-rescue scene of So and Wook staring at Su hugging Jung was absolutely priceless - they have the best ever stank face.

I'll also add a couple of moments of my own:

Episode 3 - Baek-ah and Jung finding each other in the market and threatening each other/Jung running away with Baek-ah's sketchbook.

Episode 4: - Eun dropping toy after toy in Su's lap to try and cheer her up while she thinks about second wives (admittedly, this one is really made by IU's stank face, the 'daf*q is this?!' expression is perfect)

- Kind of a more serious one, but I absolutely LOVE So and Jung's post-rescue scene together, which ended in Jung getting punched and then sticking up for his brother. It's sadly emblematic of their relationship, and I love Lee Jun-ki and Ji-soo's chemistry.

- Pretty much every scene of Su and Court Lady Oh together, especially in the cave scene in episode 11 (the desperation in Su's eyes as she said they'd escape and leave...)

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And the wait continues....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jCg-ISzpmQ

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Loved the previously posted music video of So/Soo enjoy....

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Thanks for the sharing, it really absolutely awesome!

October & April.. really fit for So/Su

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Can't stop watching this MV ..

The changes of Soo from the first episode ..from shining like a star .. sunrise in her eyes .. fire in her heart ..brightest day, but now She literally faded away in this time period. It's so heart wrenching

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Yes...I loved it too, and the lyrics fit so well....I've said it in an earlier post, I miss Soo smile, it was like sunshine chasing scary gllomy Goryeo....she doesn't smile much anymore....

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That was beautiful. I usually don't like the MV compilations but this one moved me.

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@Barbrey, I'm so glad you liked it...it fits them so well, what a fantastic couple they make, the contrast is beautiful.

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For those who need a little more So...
https://youtu.be/4gNS8ae3o2I

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Liked this one too.

These MVs really illuminate for me that the show could easily have used modern songs like they do in many emotional scenes - it's the songs that they chose not the fact they're moder because they do nothing to enhance the emotion and sometimes distract from it.

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Loved!! Music and editing excellent. :)

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@Barbrey, @Puni...loved the lyrics and editing too, and yes modern lyrics well chosen could have been truly used in scenes.....agree.

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I actually DREAMT of LJK & IU making out??? Holy crap, I've got it bad.

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@Junkikills

"I don’t know if I’ll survive the goodbye scene and the ending if they follow C-BBJX. LJG will definitely kill those scenes and leave me bawling for weeks…"

This is exactly what I'm feeling, I'm still can't get over the heartbreak over CDrama ... gosh.. what have I done to my self ..

Thanks to many of you that shared your thoughts, theories or even just jokes, it help me a lot.. I don't know what I'll become if forum like these not exist, may be I'll going insane literally

The level of addiction for me is really frightening, I can't fully functional both professionally and socially, it's the first time for me for total emotionally invested over a show, first time writing in forum, stalking IG and Twitter.. so DramaGod please be good to me .. give me a nice ending so I can ending this obsession.

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I can relate to this in so many levels ???

When i think of the possible tragic scenes LJG will act out I die a little inside ?

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Whether it ends happily, tragically or bittersweet, I'm just praying it's a good ending, ties things up well both logically and emotionally and leaves me exhausted.

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Me, too! Please, please, please just let it be a good ending!

This gives me hope though:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BLh6mp1gzVg/?taken-by=scarletheartryeonly

Ya know, frankly, I'm quite happy that the director/writers keep us on our toes. Editing and logical progression problems aside, I really like how they overturned a lot of entrenched Kdrama tropes: the 2nd male lead, the first kiss, etc.

Makes it more fun to watch knowing we have no clue what to expect: problems and all! :)

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I saw that too! Is that legit though??

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https://instagram.com/p/BKXw4DiAQgs/

Z_hera posted this. What yah think?

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if you're wondering if Soondeuk is pregnant, she isn't lol. i know a lot of people were speculating it online, but if you look closely, the hanbok style is from Joseon dynasty, not Goryeo. Joseon and Goryeo clothing differ a lot. And also it was posted during Chuseok (mid autumn festival), lots of people wear hanboks during that time.

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Yeah definitely looks like she's wearing the tangui here, and the long ribbon really places it as the Joseon style hanbok?

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she's wearing a jeogari and chima which are hanboks, originated from joseon dysnasty. the goryeo style clothing is more like Chinese styled clothing

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IU isn't suited for sageuks, period. She isn't a bad actress but she's not good, either. I find LJK and KHN's acting to be a lot better when they don't have to interact with her. I loveeee LJK but I always feel that he's especially weak in romantic scenes. Like I can't feel any chemistry between him and his female leads, and he admitted that much, too. That's why he mainly stick to action and sageuk dramas. So when you combine that weakness with IU's blank-face dead fish-eyed facial expression, it's like... nothingness lol

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Oh and I'm about to give up the So/Soo ship and rather have So/Yeon Hwa or Soo/Jung, just because they would be a lot more interesting imo :)

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Oh wow, I wouldn't find those ships interesting at all. As for IU and LJK, I find the spark a little lacking too but it's not them, it's the weird change ups that keep defusing the romantic tension. I also think IU's doing just fine as a modern girl in a sageuk; it's hard to know how she'd do in a 'straight' sageuk but other than a few episodes where the deer in the headlights eyes got on my nerves (though nowhere near as badly as that actress in W) I've totally enjoyed her performance.

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I find it hard to believe Lee Jun-ki doesn't have romantic chemistry with any of his female leads, considering how fondly his pairing with Shin Mina in Arang & the Magistrate is spoken of even several years later. Likewise his massive popularity after My Girl, which was at least partially thanks to viewers really feeling him with Lee Da-hae despite him being a second lead.

What I do see is that it tends to be hit-and-miss for him on the romantic chemistry front depending on his costar. And IU, for all her other faults, vibes pretty well with him, both in the early parts where they were Goryeo buddies and now that she's allowed more emotional range - I'm not a fan but I believe in giving credit where credit is due.

I have plenty of criticisms for Scarlet Heart but the OTP being flat is not one of them. I know what it looks like when Jun-ki has no chemistry with a costar, and trust me, it doesn't look or feel like these two.

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agree with @pogo. Despite their age gap, they look pretty good.

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After watching eps 15 and reading @patpat's comment, I somehow become more positive thinking. The K version is retaining the crucial moments from the original story (the poem, the arrow, etc) because it's an adaptation afterall, but at the same time the show is making clear that it's taking different route than C-BBJX. RX in the original version serves merely as catalyst, she doesn't change history. In this version, Jimong made it clear that the history has changed, and reading @patpat's deduction it's clear that Soo is changing history. The show also focuses very much on building So's bitter past, So-Soo's relationship and how far the change she has inflicted on him, which we don't see on C-BBJX.

Afterall the focus of K version is about how Soo is changing So and by doing it, changing the history as well. Therefore, eventhough the foreshadowings are frustratingly same with C-BBJX, I feel that the show will give us different twist at the end, which I very much hope will be happy ending.

Even the latest OST has positive tune despite of its sad lyric. It's like goodbye for now, but like in So's poem: "when the water has run dry, sit and watch for the rising clouds." Their journey may be bitter, but the ending is sweet.

It could be very well the purpose of them telling us about the creative license on the beginning of every single episode. C-BBJX stays true to history, while K-BBJX (hopefully) doesn't.

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Come to episode 15, it's pretty much clear to me the essence of K-BBJX and its striking difference compared to C-BBJX. People are comparing these two way too much, they expect K-BBJX to be the remake of C-BBJX while it's merely an adaptation of the former. K-BBJX takes the skeleton of C-BBJX and fills it with its own storyline, hence you find the story familiar but you see that it's taking different route than its Chinese counterpart.

People are comparing Soo to RX, criticizing how weak and purposeless she is. How RX is actively trying to change history and has much more knowledge about politic. How Soo is so passive and clueless about politic. But what people don't see is, this portrait of Soo is exactly the key that the writer uses to convey the essence of the story and how it differs from C-BBJX.

RX knows very well about politic and who will be the king. Therefore her action, is very much based on this knowledge, not on her instinct or even feeling. She is a portrait of a strong woman who actively tries to change history. But in the end, we all know that she fails to do so, and find herself merely as a catalyst.

Meanwhile, the Soo we have here is clueless about politic, hence she doesn't try to actively change the history. Her action is based on her feeling and instinct, therefore instead of avoiding 4th prince like RX does, she offers him sympathy, because she has no idea that he will be a king. She acts on her own agency and is not driven by the knowledge of the future. When she cut her wrist, she was merely doing it for her own conscience, not for changing the history, but that's exactly what turns the whole course of history into different direction. She isn't the POWERFUL FORCE who tries to control the course of history like RX, but she serves as what may look subtle and insignificant, but the truth is very POWERFUL INFLUENCE (like @PineappleQongzhu said). And by that powerful influence that she hasn't realized herself, she indeed succeeds changing the history, something that RX never achieves.

IMO, the core of K-BBJX (and what RX missed in C-BBJX) lies on this sentence: "Do not get so hung up on the future that you lose what you have now." RX had the knowledge of the future and she acted accordingly, and in turns, she lost what she had in the present. Soo almost fell to the same hole as RX did after her premonition of Gwangjong, and that would result in her drifting away from So and So would be the ruthless Gwangjong, hence the history stays the same. But Soo chose to trust her heart instead, her own feeling about So despite of the premonition, hence she stayed with him, and changed him to the version of So we're seeing now, and by doing so, changing the history as well.

Soo may look like she does nothing, but actually she is the power that drives the whole story. That power isn't in the form of visible force like RX, but invisible influence, which in turns is more effective. I'd say K-BBJX pretty much serves...

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... as remedy for C-BBJX. The core problem that leads to RX's tragic end is holding on the future and losing the present. Soo chose to hold on the present instead, and in her we can see the alternative, the better future that RX could have chosen otherwise.

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+1000000 \^o^/

I totally agree with you (and not because of the shout-out, but thanks).

It was sort of interesting to compare BBJX and ML:SHR in the beginning as we tried to figure out the direction ML:SHR would go...but now I'm getting a bit more with the critics who complain that Hae Su is not like Ruoxi.

I don't think the two were ever meant to be the same character, just from different countries and time periods.

I'd like to enjoy ML:SHR for the story it is telling (however many flaws we still find in it) than complain about how it isn't like its predecessor.

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spelling mistake: more = bored

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Soo on episode 15 acted just the way RX did; she let her knowledge of "future" take over her own conscience, therefore she tried to hide Eun from So. I believe it's not that she didn't trust So, but because she relied too much on her premonition, thinking of it as something that is bound to happen rather than something flexible. She would soon learn the hard lesson for doing what RX did, that is having So killing Eun. Fortunately for her though, she would learn that lesson sooner, and not on her deathbed like RX did. And because (unlike RX) she chose to rely on her feeling on earlier episodes by giving her heart to So, the foundation of their relationship has been so strong that it won't be forsaken by her lie. The death of Eun will serve as the lesson for Soo to build even stronger relationship with So in the future.

Overall, Soo had been doing the right thing so far, it's just that she fell on that RX's hole on eps 15 but she will learn her lesson and do better in the future.

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This is an excellent reading. Many fans are upset that this is a betrayal of Wang So, but I read it as Hae Su trusting her own instincts in trying to protect Wang So. And in this decision tree, she chooses left, which is still going to lead to Wang So having to kill Eun, BUT, the outcome should be that Hae Su re-evaluates her premonitions and the purpose behind trying to prevent what the future will hold. I mean, this could be a perfect moment for Hae Su to reveal to Wang So that she's from the future, and that would lead to a pretty healthy discussion for the couple, but if the writer wants to inject more angst, then probably not.

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Exactly my impression, Seltzerwater!

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I wonder if Su is ever going to reveal that bit of information to anyone besides Ji-mong, but that may be a touch too far in Goryeo. Though that would be the ultimate act of trust in So, to believe that he wouldn't think she's crazy or have her imprisoned for it.

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Really good analysis. I didn't watch the original because I didn't like the main leads, so I tend to skim over the comments from those who loved it and pan this portrayal. But from what I have read, Su isn't Roxi at all, so the comparison lost its impact early on. I think you can see that reflected in the comments section here. People have decreasingly compared them as the episodes go on, though still other parts of the drama of course.

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Yes to this..their action is different, the impact is different so it will make no sense if the end it still following the original

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This was an excellent analysis. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, especially the part about Soo's influence being invisible rather than visible like Ruoxi's. I've started to not compare SH:R with BBJX ever since Myung Hee's death lol. While there are some notable similarities, it's been really different in terms of story and characterization. I was not one of the many who hated on Soo for 'not trusting' So this episode. Yes, I was definitely frustrated with her for choosing to believe in her visions of the future over the present, I saw it as her trying to protect BOTH So and Eun in her own way. Unfortunately, her actions and decision in doing so will indeed have consequences. I'm also hoping she will learn from her mistakes and build an even stronger foundation/relationship with So.

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Mich erinnert Moon Lovers an einen Roman von Thomas Hardy mit dem Namen "Tess". Das böse ist zunächst offensichtlich nicht erkennbar, es brodelt unter einer feinen Fassade unter einer glatten Oberfläche die zu glänzen scheint. Das ist Wook. Das Gute schlummert unter einer rauhen Oberfläche, die zunächst als böse erscheinen mag, dennoch das Gute symboilisiert. Das ist Wang So. Ich finde das diese Liebesgeschichte von Hae Soo und Wang So aber in diesem Drama etwas zu gepresst dargestellt wird. Die Zeit um den Handlungsfaden mit Wook zu entwickeln war viel zu lang.

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Had to translate this but I think you mean Tess of D'uberville? I LOVED that book too!

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This drama is getting worse every minute...why am I still watching this? Only to see Kang Ha-neul and Lee Jung-ki's faces? -.-

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Well I love this drama regardless of their faces. However, I know where you're coming from. I'm watching K2 right now for no other reason than for my own crush's face. Actually, not just his face...lol!

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I've been reading the lyrics of the show's OSTs to fill the void but now I feel emptier. Why am I doing this to myself

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I know I'm not the only one who did that and feel the same way as the result

However I still have hope for So/Soo...they have strong relationship, it should have not be broken easily

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While at the tavern, I wonder if that person realize he was talking behind 4th prince. Do the 4th only recognizable because he wear mask previously?

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I think they don't expect the princes themselves to be out at a tavern, and before the days of photographs I suppose they couldn't ID them without their royal robes (or in So's case, his mask)

But this bunch get out quite a bit - Baek-ah and Jung used to go on their respective drawing/fighting jaunts which is how Jung got caught that first time, Baek-ah went drinking with Su before, and apparently they travel quite a bit now, going by So and Baek-ah's account of trying to find Su a birthday present.

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That last scene where they bring back the birthday present was what convinced me the writer meant for both So and Baek Ah to be mostly out of the palace for those two years. I mean was Baek Ah standing under that tree waiting for Woo Hee the whole time, and did So not press his claim on Su? If they were gone for most of that period it makes sense of everything. I do feel the editor let us down once again - any money that scene was cut short and the fuller information with it, the editor thinking that we should just 'get it' from the fact they had to travel far away to get that rose oil. So aggravating.

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yeah, even in the raw the minute I heard 'Pasa' (Goryeo-speak for Persia), I realised they had to have travelled quite a bit if they were getting stuff for Su from as far away as there or Bulgaria, possibly even as far as the Silk Road? I mean, Taejo gifted Su a Persian rug in episode 5 as a royal present, you don't find stuff from there just randomly being sold in Songak!

My guess is that So and Baek-ah took frequent long trips away but returned to the palace in between, given the travel and the fact that Su looks quite used to finding So hanging out outside her quarters and calling her out. But yes, the editing should have made that clear and we shouldn't have to do so much work to guess at it.

(side note: I wondered if Bulgaria was really known as 'Bulgaria' back then the way Baek-ah called it, and it turns out the First Bulgarian Empire was very much in existence at the time, and that the etymology of the word 'Bulgar' goes back to the 4th century AD..... which is comfortably in time for the name to have caught on by the time Baek-ah gets his oil)

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That's my guess too re the intermittent travel. And good for you for looking up Bulgaria!

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That said, I looked up just now how long it took roundtrip overland to travel the Silk Rd back then. Two years, from Beijing to Rome. If they went to Bulgaria from Korea it would likely take about the same amount of time if you detract on the European end and add on the Asia. If they just travelled to Persia, it would still take well over a year roundtrip. Interesting the things we look up!

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@Barbrey - I don't think they travelled all the way TO Persia or Bulgaria itself, just close enough to the Silk Road (which still places them in ..... I think Tang China?) to be getting goods which made their way to China from there, or getting access to a nice selection of goods.

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Maybe not, but I wondered why they would be sent to Persia if so. Korea had a healthy trade relationship with Persia since the 5th century. This was particularly true of Silla - a Persian prince even married a Silla princess. Goryeo in Taejo's time conquered/absorbed Silla. If a diplomatic mission was sent to Persia it was likely to re-open that trade relationship that might have paused when Silla became no longer its own nation.

I'm assuming here the writer had more access to Goryeo history than I do but this would make sense from the little that's been translated.

Anyway, pure speculation on my part, and you're right it makes more sense they travelled somewhere in China.

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@Barbrey - oops it looks like I was totally wrong - I just rewatched the episode and it turns out Baek-ah purchased Bulgarian rose oil which was brought over by a Persian merchant at Byeokrando! Which is still very much in Goryeo, it was the kingdom's main port and I guess the go-to place if people wanted something special from abroad.

So yeah, they did get around a bit but I don't think they spent all that much time away from Goryeo, since Mu wasn't killing off any of his brothers once he ascended the throne and So was meant to be his support anyway - wouldn't make sense for him to be sent out of the country the way Taejo did. I suppose that one year as ambassador was enough.

(it's ironic that Soon-deok was freaking out and refusing to let Eun go to his father's bedside when Mu became the new king when he was so nice, it was Yo's return that should have had them running for the hills before he even made a move to identify them as traitors)

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@pogo Ha! Well, I've always wondered how long it took to travel the Silk Road - makes it more real in my imagination to know two years round trip was the average! So not a complete waste of time!

No kidding about Yo's return. Once again we have to ignore improbabilities - that Eun would be within reach of Yo if grandpa's plotting to put him on the throne, that he would hide in the Damiwon and no one would search it for him when he's known to be friends with Su, etc - in order to enjoy the show.

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Seriously, if nothing else I'd expect Soon-deok's father the General to be savvy enough to get his daughter and her husband the hell out of there the minute Yo reappeared, forget however long it took for him to be crowned. Inconsistent writing for plot convenience's sake strikes yet again....and yet, here I am.

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My biggest dilemma today is how to read this 900+ ideas & comments in 1 or 2 days?
I rested for days due to flu & i refrain myself from reading comments for a while so as not to strain my eyes.
But to my surprise, the comments here reached 900+.
But ill try my best though, its a waste not to read so many good ideas & analysis of the drama.

Though, some doesnt like IU's acting in MLSHR, i find her actually more appealing here.
I had watched a few of her dramas and find myself dropping it in the middle.
Even if there are dramas that are funny but I still chose MLSHR because I find the latter so addicting, sometimes funny & cute in a unique way.
Even scenes that were sad made one watching feel so miserable & unhappy for days.?
And lastly reading recaps, reading numerous comments & ideas here are too addicting and enjoyable.?

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I blame the editor for butchering such beautiful material! Personally, I find the acting, directing (yes, despite the infamous close-up shots) and writing - especially the writing on point.
Despite the anger-inducing jumpy scenes and sometimes ridiculous background songs, I find myself drawn, even loyal to this show. I'd like to think that ML:SHR is scarred, much like So. Which makes me love it even more.

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I blame mostly the editing, but I can't deny the pacing is off in this last half and that has to be partially attributed to the writer and director, much as I've loved so much of the other work they've done. It also makes me wonder why they've allowed the butcher, ahem, editor, to do such a severely substandard job. My guess is the script was originally 24 episodes and thorough. Likely had some problems but not with pacing or character development or the So-Soo romantic tension. Then 4 hours of material had to be cut and they had a monster of a time doing it, and this would take place through both the script editor before production and in post-production. The SBS version shows us that the director was probably following the script editor version, already crippled by cuts that hashed up the storyline, and in post-production the editor saw it wasn't flowing, attempted to make it better, and made it a lot worse. And at this point the director just threw up his hands.

That's the only way I can explain it but it makes sense to me based on watching the two versions, the smaller cuts in the beginning and these larger ones now making a travesty of the time jumps and pacing - like they ran out of time to fully execute the last half.

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Hmmmmm... I get this feeling that in the next Episode (16) , the scene where Wang So looks like he weilded his sword and have blood on his face, he actually weilded it to the soldier behind Eun, and the New King ( 3rd Prince) knowing that So can never kill his brother, came prepared and he aim the arrow to Eun.Therefore it is not Wang So who killed the 10th Prince Eun....

This is just an assumption as there was a scene (still shot) not yet shown in the series,where General Park, 13th Prince and Wang So was in full battle gear, I believe General Park wont support Wang So if he was believed to have been involved in his daughters death.

Sadly I think Eun and Soon-Deok will really die....?

*Btw, can anyone tell me when did Hae Soo had the hairpin again before that Boat Date with Wang So, the last time I saw it was the night scene when Hae Soo rejected the hairpin and the marriage proposal?So supposedly it should not be in her safekeeping??

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The last BTS pic of Eun and So makes me think that it's Eun who will beg So to kill him, possibly to end his torture and to allow him to die with his wife. My theory is Yo will shoot two arrows on Eun and he will die, but slowly and painfully, hence he begs So to end him with sword rather than being shot by Yo again (we can see Yo still aims on him when So wields his sword). I wonder whether mercy killing will worsen or lessen So's sin and the time he has to spend as repentance.

I think again about So's word to Wook for not shooting Yo like he was an animal. Eun will have much honor to die on So's sword rather than Yo's arrow.

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The BTS you were referring to, I think when Eun decided to follow Soon Deok and then Wang So saw him along the way and tried to stop him from following his wife, but the same as what Eun said to Hae Soo, he is all Soon Deok has so he begged So to allow him to protect his wife, just an assumption though, I still believe he won't kill Eun...?

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About the hairpin, I think the editor "forgot" to show how Soo had that hairpin back lol

The moment Soo accepted his hairpin back should be significant because we know how she had rejected it few times. By accepting back his hairpin, it would show us that she is ready to accept his heart as well.

I'm still waiting for the breaking of Wook's bracelet though. If they forget to show that as well, I'd be really mad.

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I was actually a bit confused at first because of the 2 yrs jump on the scenes.
Then I realize that maybe the director wants me to fast forward my way of thinking to 2 yrs. so that I can finally understand the current situation.
To formulate the maybe's that happened after the last scene in episode 14 to accept what was happening in episode 15.
Like for instance, since the crown prince is known to be good hearted then it is possible that when he became king, he granted forgiveness to Hae Soo and assigned her to head the Damiwon.
I began to accept that this should be my way of thinking to understand better the events.
For me, it is quite acceptable since this drama is squeeze to 20 episodes.
Though some scenes tend to be missing, this doesn't even hinder us to understand the events or scenes on the drama, isn't that amazing?
All commenters here are like part of the MLSHR team who are in charge of formulating the "maybe events' to complete the whole scenario of the drama.
If only MLSHR has more than 20 episodes...
But on a positive note, this flaw as they say, is actually
the reason everyone here communicate, analyze & interact in a creative manner.

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The time jump wasn't well done at all.... I feel like we're missing some episodes in between episode 13 and 14.

Seriously MLSHR should be at least 24 episodes!

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I agree (see above). When a script is commissioned, the number of episodes is specified. 'We'd like you to write a 24 episode script based on BBJX but with a Korean historical context". So that's what I think the writer did, weaving together the novel, Korean history, original subtext and imagery, founding myth, humour, tragedy, original story elements - a little overwhelming in and of itself. But all interdependent on one another. So if you have to cut out 4 hours, what do you sacrifice? Obviously not the crowd pleasing humour, or idol moments to shine, or the most impactful scenes of tragedy with Lady Oh and Lady Hae. They seem to have shortchanged us in areas they thought they had enough of, but didn't, like So-Su moments, better development in side character relationships, historical logic, etc. And we know this because we can sense when something is missing even when it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb, because we keep seeing deleted scenes, and because the draft script of the first four episodes included scenes - like So held hostage so Goryeo wouldn't lay siege to that fort, Yoo ordering the siege anyway, and Mu saving little So - that are never fully portrayed and we lose so much emotional and logical understanding of why characters act the way they do. That's why I fully believe this was a longer script condemned to a hatchet job when the powers-that-be decided to shorten it, probably for reasons of expedience in planning the season.

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Agree with you, it doesn't make any sense at all why it only 20 eps while simple romcom like JI get 24 eps, this story has multi plots, multi characters and had longer time span to cover

I wonder what reason they had to butcher their own product

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Right?? I love Jealousy Incarnate but I thought it's a little too long for a rom com. Come on Kim PD, the original BBJX had 35 episodes, and they had so much going on each episode

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totally agree! seriously the first maybe 6-7 episodes were really slow, not really any developments. I think that explains the low domestic ratings. We want to see more action and character developments, but instead we get this slow moving plot that isn't going anywhere. I think they should focus more on court/politics more in the beginning because that'd definitely bring up the ratings.

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I'd really like to get my hands on the full original script.

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Depending on how the story will end, I would like to have full blue ray or dvd with english subs without any butchering. But yeah, depend on the ending.

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Me too.

I wish 'pre-produced' also meant that the scripts were written in advance, but in this case, apparently not.

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I am hoping that if ever Wang So will have no choice but to draw his sword on Eun, he will do it in a way that Eun can still live, this scenario can be possible?
He did it before with Wang Yo, so maybe it is possible also for Eun & Soon Deok.
I think maybe Wang So will slightly slash Eun so he can still live.
But Wang Yo knowing So intention/pla and inorder to make sure that Eun wont live, he shoot Eun twice with his arrow.

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or is also possible that it is Wook who shot Eun with arrows?
It was shown in the previous episode that he can shoot arrows well too.

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Another possibility. I think a lot of this plotting is going to be revealed this next episode. Really hoping it is Eun's death that tinders So's simmering rage into eruption and we get the beginning of full-scale rebellion. I'd also really like it if Su-So, Ji Mong, Baek Ah could get out of the palace for a bit. Maybe start mustering forces in the countryside with the general and let their relationship breathe.

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i hope everything you said will happen next wk.
let's hope for the best!
but i'm still sad that 1 of the prince will die though his role has a slight significance on the drama.
but maybe Eun will die & Seon dook will live to avenge Eun's death with the help of her father.

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"I have done nothing wrong," said the guy who did everything wrong.

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seriously Wook annoys me so much, he wasn't this bad in the beginning. he's sunken so low

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I know! I'm like, wyd, man. Whatever affection I had for him had gone bye-bye for good.
He even wears TULLE over his robes! Making me question his life decisions even more.

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I hope Wang Yo will die together with the cunning Won on the next episodes.
And maybe include Wook...but prefer to end his life on the 2nd to the last episode, 19th.
And leave the last episode for a happy ending for us all to remember for eternity.?

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To Johan; Get ready for another time jump of four years, which was Yo's reign.

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