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Moon Lovers: Scarlet Heart Ryeo: Episode 13

This episode puts everyone’s loyalties to the test as alliances are formed and rivalries are created all in the name of one golden chair. The fate of Goryeo comes to rest on Su’s generally incapable shoulders, leaving her to choose which of the two prominent men in her life she should entrust with information that could end their world as they know it. No pressure or anything.

 
EPISODE 13 RECAP

So notices the armor beneath Wook’s outer layer, just as Woo-hee rushes the king. Baek-ah takes the blade meant for his father, but the feat goes mostly unnoticed—everyone gets too distracted by the king suddenly collapsing on his own.

Baek-ah kicks the bloody sword away to hide the evidence and tells Woo-hee to run. She does, while third prince Yo tells ninth prince Won to find Wook. He knows their plan has failed.

On his deathbed, King Taejo ruminates over what he’s managed to accomplish in life with only Grand General Park and Astronomer Choi at his side. They assure the king that he made the right decision in choosing Crown Prince Mu to ascend the throne, and in turn, he tells them to watch over both Mu and So.

That night, Su thinks over So’s marriage proposal. The next morning, Yo, Wook, and ninth prince Won approach the king’s quarters with a devious plan in mind. All roads in and out of the palace have been blocked, with Yo intending to receive the king’s final decree (presumably for him to succeed the throne) without the crown prince finding out.

But before they can advance any further, they’re joined by fourteenth prince Jung and surrounded by Grand General Park’s soldiers. General Park knows exactly what Yo’s about, and cautions all four princes to leave—should they not, they’ll be charged with treason.

Even the queens are denied access to the king, with Queen Sinmyeongsunseong slowly realizing that Astronomer Choi must be trying to buy time before Crown Prince Mu arrives. Inside, only Su is allowed to tend to the king in his final moments.

Taejo knows he doesn’t have much time, so he asks Su to bring the crown prince to him. It must be her, he says, because no one else can find out about his death before the crown prince arrives. “Once you leave this room, someone will approach you,” he breathes. “To the person who only asks how I am feeling, tell them that I am asking for more tea. But beware of the one who asks if I have died—that person eyes the throne.”

After warning her not to trust anyone, he adds that the fate of Goryeo rests on her shoulders. “That may be the reason why you are here,” he continues in voiceover, as Su weaves through the soldiers outside the palace to reach her destination.

So attempts to leave the palace grounds, only to be blocked by his half-sister, Princess Yeonhwa. When she tells him that no one’s allowed to leave, he surmises that those are Wook’s orders—he’d wondered why Wook was wearing armor beneath his robes at the ceremony, but now he knows that Wook was planning on attacking the king.

Despite her limp, Su tries to make a run for it. Wook stops her to ask where she’s going, and she lies that she’s going to Damiwon to fetch more tea for the king. Wook then asks her about the marriage proposal from So like he has a right to be jealous, and though she begins to tell him he’s got it all wrong, she soon remembers the task she was originally sent out for.

It’s only then that Wook asks if the king passed away, causing Su to realize the kind of person she’s facing. The king specifically warned her against anyone asking if he had passed. “Do you… wish to become king?” Su asks haltingly.

Yeonhwa asks the same question of So, despite his adamance that the crown prince is set to succeed the king. While Su asks Wook if he will become king, we return to So, who mockingly asks his half-sister if it’s so easy to become king that all one has to do is wish for it. Yeonhwa says it would be for So, since she and her clan could throw all their support behind him.

To Su, Wook claims that the reason he wants the throne is because he needs that power to protect the ones he loves. Quick cut back to So (I’m getting whiplash), who asks Yeonhwa what power being king would grant him. “If I become king, would the heart I so desire become mine?”

Back to Wook, as he says that he will become king. Then back to So, who now says that he will become king.

The queens are finally allowed in the king’s quarters, though he already has one foot in the afterlife. He imagines Court Lady Oh in a verdant field with an armful of flowers, and whispers her name before passing on.

Surprisingly, Queen Sinmyeongsunseong cries as she tries to shake the king back to the land of the living: “You cannot leave me like this! Your Majesty! Come back! Come back!”

“For your sake, I will surely become king,” Wook tells Su. That’s not at all what she wants, but he tells her it’s already begun—he’ll attack the king’s quarters with Yo tomorrow. He takes a protesting Su by the shoulders as he adds that the crown prince won’t be returning anyway. Someone has to take the throne, so all she has to do is hide and wait for him.

He asks again whether the king has passed, and with dead eyes and a flat voice, Su only says that the king asked for more tea. That’s when he tells her that the crown prince is too far to the south for her to get to him on her own, having guessed that that’s the mission she’s on. Su just runs away in response.

Meanwhile, Yeonhwa scoffs that the only reason So wants to become king is to win a girl’s heart. (Because he used one second to convince himself that he could, or something.) So doesn’t care what she thinks, since that’s all the throne means to him.

He orders her to make way for him, but she refuses, guessing that he might try to bring the crown prince back.

Baek-ah seems unharmed for the most part as he meets with an indignant Woo-hee, who blames him for ruining her plan to kill the king. When he asks her why she did it, she claims that it’s because his father killed every member of her family.

He actually apologizes on his father’s behalf, which causes a tear to snake down Woo-hee’s cheek. She fights him when he pulls her into an embrace, but eventually gives in. “I am sorry for being my father’s son,” he adds. Are there really going to be no consequences from that ceremony? Really?

Yo figures that if the king isn’t already dead, he will be soon. Fourteenth prince Jung doesn’t seem aware of his brother’s plans, and blurts that the king is probably feeling better due to the tea Su’s been making him. Since that means that Su knows of the king’s condition, Yo is determined to stop her before she gets to the crown prince.

Su sees that ninth prince Won is looking for her, and is pulled to safety by So. Trusting him, she tells him that the king has passed away, and that he tasked her with finding the crown prince. She also tells him of Wook’s plans to attack tomorrow, earning a rise out of So, since that means that she would’ve had to have talked to Wook in order to find out.

Since all the roads out of the palace are blocked, So tries to think of another way for them to get the word out. When he says that the crown prince is in former Later Baekje territory to the south, the displaced princess from Later Baekje, Woo-hee, instantly comes to Su’s mind.

Speaking of, Baek-ah asks Woo-hee if she’d be willing to forget everything and just be with him, since no one would recognize her from the ceremony. Before she can answer, they’re interrupted when Su arrives with So to ask Woo-hee about her hometown.

Since So trusts Baek-ah, he tells him that the king has passed, which causes Woo-hee to lose her footing. Baek-ah steadies her as So fills him in on what Su told him about their brothers’ plans, asking Baek-ah to be the one to send word to the crown prince. He’ll stay behind to try and stop their brothers—and thankfully, Woo-hee knows a secret road Baek-ah can use to leave the palace.

Princess Yeonhwa tells her brother about her encounter with So, though the more pressing issue is the king’s health. No one knows if he’s alive or dead, since his queens have basically been held hostage inside his quarters so that no word will leak out.

Yeonhwa sees this as an opportunity for Wook to storm the king’s quarters and declare himself king (which would mean altering the king’s final decree), but Wook doesn’t want anyone to be able to call him a traitor. “I wish to be seen as flawless,” he says, much to his sister’s dismay.

She claims to not understand what he wants, since he even went so far as to wear armor to the ceremony the night before. Wook only tells her that he’s weighing his options. Seeing his scheming side makes Yeonhwa happy, as she arrogantly notes that she’s no longer having to force his hand—he genuinely wants the throne now: “You’ve changed, Orabeoni.”

“If the situation will not change, then I must,” Wook says, resigned. But the only thing that worries him now is the thought of having to betray Su, or so he says.

So finds Su staring at the empty throne in the dark, and jokingly asks if she wants to sit in it. Does she not want the seat that everyone’s now fighting for? Su says she doesn’t, not when the king had to kill Court Lady Oh to keep it. And now that So’s having to fight his brothers for it. “Even if you fight tomorrow, you won’t harm them, will you?”

He guesses that she’s worried about Wook, but not for the right reasons—he still thinks that she only considers Wook a relative. But if that were the case, he wonders, why did she come to him? “He said it was for my sake,” Su begins. “He was angry that he couldn’t do anything when I was driven out, so he says he wants more power.”

So nods in understanding, claiming that he once felt the same way. Looking back up toward the throne, Su says that because the king told her to live her life according to reason, she’s siding with the crown prince. But that doesn’t mean she wants to see Wook hurt, since she claims that would scar her for life.

Surprisingly, So is more than willing to go out of his way not to harm Wook, since he doesn’t want to see Wook die either. “I could be injured too,” he adds. “Are you not worried about me?” She isn’t, because she knows he’ll go on to become King Gwangjong, though of course she can’t say as much. All she tells him is that she knows he’ll be fine. So smiles at her, then looks toward the throne.

Queen Sinmyeongsunseong becomes insanely possessive over the king’s body, enough to where she refuses to let Queen Sinjeong anywhere near him. Their tiff is interrupted by So, which makes the evil queen intensely unhappy—she’d rather either of the sons she actually loves to be the first to see the king dead.

So kneels at his father’s bedside as Astronomer Choi relates the king’s last words to him, which were about how fleeting life is. It’s then that So flashes back to two years ago, when Choi had gone to Shinju to give him a new mask, which his father gifted him every year.

While trying it on, So had turned and accidentally caught sight of the king in his palanquin nearby. He’d come with the astronomer to see his son receive his gift, even if it was only from a distance. Seeing how So’s face just lit up at the sight of him is heartbreaking.

In the present, he lays his father’s funeral cloak over him. Only then does he tell Astronomer Choi to gather General Park and his men to prepare for the rebellion Wook and Yo have planned for tomorrow. The king wanted the throne to go to the crown prince, so now it’s their job to make sure that happens.

Queen Sinjeong is shocked to hear about her son’s involvement in such a plot, but of course, the evil queen threatens to kill So if he so much as breathes on Yo. “You expect him to live after committing treason?” he growls, pulling his arm from her grasp. “You have too much greed.”

Queen Sinjeong is the one to think on her feet, since she and Queen Sinmyeongsunseong now have a common goal. If they don’t figure something out fast, both their sons will die.

Woo-hee forces Baek-ah to make camp later that night, since his wound is paining him. Over a warm fire, Baek-ah tells her that he never intended to hide that he was a prince from her. At least she knows she has no room to be upset, since she hid things from him too.

But Baek-ah can’t help but wonder what their lives would have been like if he were only a musician, and if she were only a gisaeng. Woo-hee just tells him to rest by way of answer, since they’ll reach her hometown tomorrow. They both know that they’ll have to part ways then, and neither will have a reason to meet again.

Woo-hee’s much more adamant about this point than he is, so Baek-ah just resigns himself to that fact. “If we can’t see each other again, then… can I do as I like tonight?” he asks, before leaning in to kiss her.

Wook and Yo show up at the palace gates in full battle regalia, and though Yo is somewhat concerned that it’s so quiet, they know that most of the king’s forces are with the crown prince. Regardless of what happens, Wook only has one request of Yo: “If So tries to stop us, make sure to kill him.” Yo readily agrees.

They walk their massive forces through the gates, encountering So and Grand General Park with an army of their own. Wook has the decency to look guilty when he spots Su looking at him from behind the lines, but it’s too late now.

Yo proclaims that he’s come to free his mother, who’s been unjustly held in the king’s quarters without reason. Yo is the first to draw his sword, but Wook and So are the only ones to go at it, acting as their respective armies’ champions.

Wook is strong in his offense, leaving So to parry his blows. But when So takes the initiative to rush him, it sets Wook back more than a few paces—and from there, the blows only become more intense. The two men lock arms and swords in combat until they’re at a standstill, which is only broken when archers on the roof send arrows raining down on Yo’s forces.

More soldiers come rushing through the gate, but So’s got his eyes locked on Wook as he crouches into a battle stance. But the arrival of the soldiers signifies a much bigger arrival—they’ve come with Crown Prince Mu and Baek-ah. Busted!

Yo orders Wook to go into the king’s quarters while he holds their eldest brother off. Instead, Wook spins around and holds his sword to Yo’s neck. Yo calls his brother out for his betrayal, though Wook says that it can’t be considered betrayal when they weren’t even on the same side.

Indeed, Crown Prince Mu claims that it was Wook who told him all about Yo’s treasonous plan, which makes Wook look like the real hero here. So’s face twitches in minor annoyance, but it’s not like he can interject—everyone wins with Yo looking like the big bad.

Only then does Astronomer Choi officially announce that the king has died, and that he decreed before his death that Crown Prince Mu would become king. Wook shocks them all by being the first to raise a victory chant: “Manseh! Manseh! Manseh!”

So joins him in the chant, and soon, everyone in the courtyard does as well. Crown Prince Mu is the only one left standing as everything hits him at once—his father is dead, and now he’s king.

A white-haired woman stumbles out of the king’s quarters to hear the news… and it’s Queen Sinmyeongsunseong? Did she go white overnight?

The princes take turns seeing their dead father, with fourteenth prince Jung being particularly affected by the sight. Princess Yeonhwa only thinks to herself that she’ll make this nation her own.

Meanwhile, Soon-deok does her best to stop tenth prince Eun from attending the funeral, because she knows all too well what happens when a new king ascends the throne. If Eun stays quiet and keeps to himself, she says, then the king will surely leave them alone.

Eun refuses to take the armor she tries to give him, refusing to wear his wife’s armor just to save his own life. Soon-deok gets a little too excited at the thought of them dying together, which Eun quickly refutes. “Why should we die at all?” he wonders. “Let’s both live.” By that, he means live together, which puts his loving wife over the moon.

Su confronts Wook about having lied to her about being on Yo’s side, realizing that he meant to test her. He admits as much, but adds that she still went to So in the end. With wide eyes, she asks if he was planning on killing So, and he levels her with a look as he says that he fully intends on becoming king, so he may as well start getting rid of anyone who’ll stand in his way now.

She can’t believe what she’s just heard—Wook knew how much she suffered from being the cause of Court Lady Oh’s death, so what did he think would happen if he used her to kill So? “You have changed. You are not the person I once knew,” she says, stunned.

Wook throws that right back at her, claiming that she hid things from him, too. “I wanted you to tell me that the king had died. Didn’t you care if I would die or not?” But Su tells him she was on a special mission from the king, and that So had promised not to hurt him.

That gets to Wook most, but with desperation in her eyes, Su reminds him that he’d once told her that they could leave the palace and live in peace. Approaching him halting step by halting step, she tells him that she’s ready to do that now, and firmly believes that the new king will grant their request if Wook only asks. Oh no, Su.

Wook simply says that won’t be possible, which causes Su’s eyes to fill with tears. “You said you would become king for my sake. You’re lying to yourself,” she realizes. She steps away from him as she adds that she’ll keep her distance from him starting now.

Su takes a special kind of offense when Wook asks if this is because of So, asking him if he ever trusted her and her feelings for him even once. Confronted, all Wook can do is claim that he’ll make her return to him. “It won’t be easy,” Su replies.

Yo runs for his life, pursued by Wook, So, and a small army of soldiers. They corner him on that cliff you’ve definitely seen in a sageuk before, and left with no other option, Yo fights and kills many of his pursuers. So stops Wook from shooting him with an arrow, as that would be too humiliating for Yo.

As Yo continues to cut down the men who approach him, So finally comes forward to fight him directly. He’s incredibly quick and agile as he fights Yo with his sword sheathed, though his goal is to talk him off the ledge (literally and figuratively). When Yo proclaims that he won’t give up, So unsheathes his sword and plunges it into his older brother’s chest.

The force of the blow pushes Yo back toward the edge of the cliff. He seems to sense that So won’t kill him, so he knocks the sword away, only for it to be plunged once more into his belly. Even So looks surprised at what he’s just done, and he rushes forward to catch Yo as he goes tumbling over the cliff…

But he’s too late. A crash can be heard far below as So just stares forward in shock. Jung cries for his hyungnim, who’s presumably (and luckily) fallen into the water below, then turns from grief to anger as he stares accusingly up at So.

Jung is the one to inform their mother of the death of her son, but it takes a while for the white-haired queen to believe him. If she didn’t have it out for So before, you can bet she does now.

Su finds So keeping to himself with tears in his eyes, and he tells her that he thought she’d never forgive him if he went to her. “But you might be understanding,” he says with hope, then adds the fateful words, “I… stabbed my older brother.”

He cries, and Su reaches out a tentative hand to pat him comfortingly on the shoulder. Just that touch seems to do him in, and when his crying intensifies, Su just pulls him into an embrace and lets him cry his heart out.

 
COMMENTS

It’s still difficult to actually swallow the change in Wook, no matter how organic the show tries to make it feel. It’s not that I can’t buy that he’d do these things, only that it seems like such a giant shift for someone who was so upright and principled before. People change, of course, and maybe he was just waiting for an opportunity to let it all hang out—but call me old fashioned, because I miss the Wook of yore.

Now he’s seemingly more cunning than all his other brothers combined, which is already making him a force to be reckoned with. I knew he’d planned to flip the situation with Yo to make himself the hero, but I wasn’t expecting it to be so swift, so I was actually taken by surprise when Wook turned on him. He couldn’t have done it because he thought he would be king, but because he wanted to get rid of the competition and endear himself to the new king. I do wonder if he would’ve actually killed So had he been given the chance, and based off his conversation with Su, it seems he would have.

It certainly makes a difference that Wook now seems to be the more cold-blooded brother out of him and So, since he was ready to shoot Yo down without so much as a second thought. It was So who cared about maintaining Yo’s dignity, no matter how treasonous he’d behaved. And even before, it was So who promised Su that he would (to the best of his ability) try to not harm Wook, since he didn’t want his half-brother dead. Wook wouldn’t make the same promise to Su under any circumstance now. He’s made that much clear.

What worries me now is how So might change once future events start calling for him to do so. Compared to Wook, he’s much too trusting and good-hearted—but now that we’ve seen that side of So, it’d be absolutely devastating for him to turn to the dark side just to get his hands on the throne. I can’t quite get a read on how badly he wants the seat, since he tends to fluctuate between saying that he wants it and definitely will have it, to seemingly forgetting that he ever thought of it. Was he lying when he told Yeonhwa that he wanted to be king so he could win Su’s heart? I’m actually hoping that he was, because the alternative doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. When did he decide that being king was the way to Su’s heart? And when did he intend to act on that?

But this episode was a great showcase for Lee Jun-ki and the range of emotions he can portray with only silence. Whether it was that facial twitch of annoyance when Wook stepped up as the crown prince’s savior, or the look of horror and sadness when he stabbed his own brother, So gives us the most open window to his soul out of all the characters presented. Wook would probably come in second, since we can usually see what he’s feeling even if he makes an active effort to hide it.

Su still continues to be Su, but at least she took some action this hour, and realized that her future wasn’t with Wook. Her last conversation with him was as confusing as it was necessary for her to move on, though I can’t help but wonder if she actually meant what she said about being ready to run away with him. Why now, of all times? Did she actually believe that he was doing all this for her sake, and would she have truly run away with him had he agreed? How many men are going to profess to become king just for her?

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what is life? I have to lurk here until Monday?? I was up until 1:30 rewatching the earlier episodes. Here's what I noticed

Ep1 - That horse meet cute. That's gotta be one of the best meet cutes ever. Both Hae Su and Wang So were immediately PHYSICALLY attracted to each other, without knowing anything about each other first. I mean, that tension is pretty palpable through the progression of the episodes. I think in contrast with the Wook meet-cute, that felt like Hae Su was into him because he was so damn classically handsome (like a prince, which he is) vs. her attraction to Wang So which is like a baser, more primal attraction. Idk, guy on a horse always wins.

Ep 2 - The infamous bath time near strangling - even though Hae Su was suppose to be genuinely afraid for her life when Wang So freaks out over her seeing his face, the sound track was insanely romantic. In fact, that Lee Hi song (My Love) was playing softly in the background. So freaking weird?! Idk if the musical director was just like, screw it, we gotta make this near strangulation romantic - it kinda undercut all the tension they had between them. Even though, I enjoyed the physical proximity/sexual tension of the scene, it played WEIRD.

Ep 2-7 - I noticed how different Wang So was with Hae Su as their relationship kept progressing. Even though barring the horse meet-cute and the bath scene (which were in your face romantic); you can see a changing attitude in Wang So. I would pinpoint it to several crucial turns in their relationship.

1) When Hae-Su stopped him from destroying the mom-rocks. (He wanted to kick mom-rocks). Later in this episode, they have a really cute exchange before snowfall when she shows him the same kind of consideration she would show a friend. I mean, Wang so was fucked from the start. This girl basically showed him more kindness in 1 week than he'd had experience in his entire life.

2) She sat with him at his lonely brunch at the mountain top. Seriously, what's a brunch w/o friends.

3) Wang So helps Hae Su escape the king's proposal on horse back. That's why Hae Su really begins to understand that Wang So cares something for her. They do some of their best talking on a horse, apparently: it's where they meet, it's where he helps her escape, and it's the post-forced kiss moment. And damn, all the skinship. *wipes brow* This escape with Wang So made Hae Su take notice, she said "Prince, I never thought you would help me like this."

Basically, after these turns, Wang So was like completely head over heels. There's almost nothing that he's doing that isn't about finding a way to get closer to Hae Su.

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Hahaha! I'm glad I'm not the only one re-watching the earlier episodes while I wait *patiently* (UGH) for Monday to arrive.

I completely concur with what you said about Wang So/Hae Su's developing relationship. You do see change. But, I still find the jump from "non-entities walking about in my life" to "hey, my friend!" still a bit jarring. For WS, I think the turn came after the rock altar tantrum, progressing through the mountain top lunch. I still feel it a bit rushed, but LJG can make me believe anything.

What I am LESS convinced about is Hae Su thinking of WS as a friend. Outside of saving her on horseback in episode 1/2 and Yeon Hwa's beating, WS didn't do or say much that is endearing. That is my only puzzlement.

Everything else, though, flows naturally after the friendship has been established in episode 4.

What I noticed going back over those episodes is how awesome LJG is at portraying Wang So's internal changes. First 3, maybe 4-ish, episodes, he definitely has the wild, unpredictable, lone-wolf, anti-social feeling about him. Even the way he carries his body screams feral. But, starting episode 5 onward, there's this calm and gradual refinement as he becomes accustomed to palace life and being accepted.

But then, of course, he goes off the rails every once in a while, just to keep us guessing. The man is a wild card. RAWR.

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I am probably sound biased right now, but I think Wang So saving Hae Soo from being whipped by Yeonhwa pretty telling, that this man is a keeper. Hahaha. If I were at her place, where no one stood up for me, and the suddenly someone you feel comfortable talking came and saved you, I would've fall head over heals with that person. Too bad Hae Soo had eyes on Wang Wook at that time. But one cannot deny that she looked touched, even 'waited' for Wang So at the bridge (before she nagged him about I-am-not-your-belonging scene, which I found very cute and heartwarming)

Oh yeah...I am biased ^^

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I think Hae Su's friendship with Wang So actually works, because she's been so open to him from the beginning. She seeks him out over and over again, basically against all logic, because she feels some empathy towards who he is? Maybe Wang So was irresistible to her, because it doesn't make sense for her character to be so into his well-being from the first few episodes where he was like a raging emo-prince.

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lol yeah So and Su's friendship didn't have the most logical foundation on the page, but somehow they sold it well enough that I bought it both idea-wise and chemistry-wise.

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HaHa Selterwater!

I was just getting ready to re-watch the earlier episodes and thought I'd stop by here first!

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Don't know of its been mentioned but..that part where So stopped Jung from being the one to confront their hyung spoke volumes to me. He and Jung aren't even on good terms and still he didn't want his baby brother to have to potentially bear the burden of ending Yo. Say whatever you want to about So but he will always have a special spot in my heart because of this.

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It tears me up how much So TRIES with his birth family sometimes. And I wish Jung would actually see that and reciprocate, instead of holding what feels like a misplaced grudge against So for having ended (as far as they know) Yo.

I suspect Jung might actually be a little mad at So for that, going by his expression when he broke the news to his mother.

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I also think he's mad at So for Yo's death. Even if Yo is evil, they have always been together and they didn't lack the familial love since Queen Sin made them feel that. I just hope he sees the light before darkness eats him from his hatred.

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Yes So was being nice.

I wish Jung had more brains. I really thought he had grown a spine when he stood up to Yo and stayed away from Evil Mommy.

But he with that angry look at So he ruined it. Didn't he see the fight...?? Didn't he see So try not to hurt Yo. It just happened dude...

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Totally agree with you, IvoryLight & pogo.

It just kills me inside how loving he is given that he is so love-starved. and he is loving towards the very people who he should TRUST to love him back, but reject him to no end.

It is interesting how they are setting up Jung to be against Wang So in the end. I was wondering how they would do that since Jung is such a sweetheart.

But, now that they think Wang So killed Yo, and Jung now has a crush on Hae Su, the pieces are starting to fall into place.

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yeah, and Jung has been shown to naturally look up to Wook, which makes him even likelier to go against So in the end.

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Agreed with everyone's comments.

I was hoping that So would eventually have a tolerable relationship with at least ONE of his full brothers, but that slim chance is wasting away by the moment. However, I am not too saddened, as long as they keep their mitts off my baby Baek-ah. I didn't get to say this on the last recap thread but I swore about six ways to Sunday when he got stabbed... what is it with this show and threatening the So-Baek bromance?? First poison, now a stabbing- PLEASE REFRAIN FROM HURTING MY BABIES.

So's unending efforts with his family both make me love him more and be more nervous for him at the same time. While he's definitely not at the level of slaughtering a temple full of monks for his mom any more, looking out for them even when they don't deserve it seems to be as much a part of him as his scar is. Evil Queen and Jung are his weak points in a sense, and you know who is well aware of this? (Darth) Wook. It doens't seem out of the realm of possibility that he'll use his relationship with the maknae to hurt Wang So, on top of whatever ill will Jung has to throw at So himself.

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Oh ho! And Wook has good reason to seek revenge on Evil Queen SMSS, too (which, in truth, she deserves); which might be a good way to draw out or trap So if he tried to protect her.

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"Evil Queen and Jung are his weak points in a sense, and you know who is well aware of this? (Darth) Wook." ....IvoryLight LOL....hilarious....

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So many comments! And I'm so late to hop onto this band wagon, but I've been thinking about Su and her passiveness these past few episodes. At first it bugged me to no end -- where is the modern woman in her? But then it dawned on me. That girl is depressed. She's stuck in a different world with no way out, she lost two close female friends/mentors, the man she thought she liked turned on her, and she's afraid to love the man who truly loves her. Plus, she's been downgraded to one of the lowest ranks of servants, she obviously still has health issues (of course, the limping might be psychological) and chronic pain almost always leads to depression. If I were her, I'd probably be as passive as she is. Sure, her parting words to Wook "It won't be easy" seem to show a glimmer of her former self but it might be a long way to go.
It also doesn't help that IU isn't as good at portraying subtle emotions like KHN or LJK. Or that the writer, instead of using her as an entry point to that world, keeps us, viewers, guessing. With eyes wide open. *.*

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It's very strange to me because in Producer, at least half of IU's screentime was spent in (sometimes extreme) closeup, and she absolutely nailed the face/eye acting there.

Which makes me think the issue really lies with the directing, and not so much with her - she's pretty well capable of emoting naturally and believably when she's allowed, as we saw in the cave scene last week.

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I've only seen like a half of episode of Producers, so I'll trust your opinion on IU's capabilities. True, she seems like a decent actress, especially when she's given the opportunity to be more spunky/fiery. Perhaps, then, it is an issue with directing or the overall approach to Su's character (in terms of writing AND directing) that she oftentimes seems so... monotonous.

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@pollyanna @capt_blackdog - The first two episodes of Producer are drastically different in tone the rest (and actually changed directors), so I'd say give it till episode 3, if you're looking to check it out. IU was the most memorable part of that drama for me, which is quite the feat considering who her costars were.

And yes, the default tendency when performances are underwhelming, is to pin it on the actress - which is sometimes justified, because some of them are terrible to mediocre even in the hands of skilled writers/PDs who bend over backwards to accommodate their deficiencies.

But I do try to cut actresses some slack when I've seen them bring it in a previous project - that, to me, is proof that the issue really isn't the actress but the writing/direction.

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yep, it's true. IU was really shining in "producer" which is why I still find it baffling that she got so many eyes-wide-open close-ups here. :O

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"That girl is depressed. She’s stuck in a different world with no way out, she lost two close female friends/mentors, the man she thought she liked turned on her, and she’s afraid to love the man who truly loves her. Plus, she’s been downgraded to one of the lowest ranks of servants, she obviously still has health issues (of course, the limping might be psychological) and chronic pain almost always leads to depression."

^^^^ I have spent what would probably be considered an unhealthy amount of time thinking about this drama and the characters and their motivations (as Seltzerwater said upthread: What is life? lolol) but this never even occurred to me @capt_blackdog!!

It just makes so much sense. We've even SEEN this version of Su before. In the VERY FIRST episode, she was sitting on a pier, chugging soju with a homeless man. The defeat in her posture, the lack of spark in her eye-she'd been betrayed by her friend and the man she loved, lost everything financially and had just been beaten up by her loan sharks, and not minimizing what she went through in the future, but in Goryeo it was all that x100000. Of course she's depressed, she's down...but she's not totally out yet.

In 13, when the maids were giving her a hard time, there was a brief moment when that 'game on, fighting time' face that she had when fighting with Eun or getting in So's face made an appearance and I cheered cause I thought she would smack the mean maid silly. Of course they mentioned Lady Oh's death (her kryptonite) and she promptly deflated but the spunky, outspoken version is still in there. I hope she comes out to play again, because I have a mighty need for Su grinning as brightly as So did in the garden scene.

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Agreed on all accounts!

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Brilliant Analysis...

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I second that sentiment...Su's smiles and spunk are like sunshine in this show....I would go as far as to add that she looks beautiful in her sad melancholic stage too almost like a different person....the super cute dresses and makeup from her stay at the 8th Prince's home are gone, but there is also a certain beauty in simplicity. When So finds her doing laundry she rubs her eyes with her fingers , and how I love that scene, she looks like a little child, innocent, vulnerable. Also, our Hae Soo is very strong, to add to everything thats happened, So took off for a year....no letters, no phonecalls:)....and I believe a year without So must have been incredibly hard on her....despite what she says about waiting for him....who wouldn't be depressed?

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We’ve even SEEN this version of Su before. In the VERY FIRST episode, she was sitting on a pier, chugging soju with a homeless man.

ooooh that is such a brilliant point. But yeah, Goryeo dialed it up to 11 with the betrayal, abandonment and loss, so even the spark that depressed present-Su hadn't completely lost, was really close to being extinguished for a while there

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Oh man I can tell she's starting to have health issues... kneeling in the rain, limping, chest pain.. well i'm preparing for the worst ??????

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Since I came into this not knowing the source material (the Chinese version of the show, or the novel it came from), I was totally unprepared for the main character to develop chronic health problems stemming from torture and stress!

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God I know - she just looks so frail. And has looked so increasingly for the last four episodes. Her moment of true agency, running to get the prince, but hobbling all the way, is almost heartbreaking. I do hope that leg gets reset, or she gets fatigued less often from now on, because it almost hurts me to see her run or walk, like a bird with a broken wing.

It made me pause for a moment when she said it hurts more when she's near the water, because that almost contradicted my water imagery line of inquiry. The water should be giving her strength not frailty, I thought. But it did remind me of the Little Mermaid story a bit, the real one not Disney, when she gives up her tail for human legs and every step she takes is a fiery pain. Does the water increase that pain as a way of drawing her 'home', away from this suffering human life where her love left her bereft for a year. Death draws her? I'm over-interpreting, I know, but the water imagery has been extremely consistent throughout, so I'm just trying to make sense of this throwaway line in context. Might have to wait and see if it makes more sense thematically within the next episodes.

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When she said her leg hurt more when she gets close to water I immediately thought of you, Barbrey, and have been meaning to ask you about it.

It does seem to contradict the water imagery motif you've been building. But, maybe there is a reason....

I can't help but think back to Episode 1 where Go Ha Jin was beaten up (i.e. injured) before she drowned. Also, if she is supposed to be stronger by water, why would she have drowned in the first place? Hmm....food for thought.

Also, the one detail that keeps bothering me is that when she jumped off the pier, she left her shoes behind, although we never see her take them off before she jumps. And the camera seemed to make a point of showing that her shoes are left behind. Why? If it were a story-telling technique to show she jumped into the water indirectly, fine; but the camera already showed her jumping in. Why emphasis the loss of her shoes? My deep thought for the day *natch*

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Now that you mention it, I remember the camera also seemed to make point of showing Wook giving her the shoes when he broke into her room. I was like "Huh? You try to calm a girl by giving her her shoes?" I wonder if it should mean something.

Idk, maybe I just overthink it haha..

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I never caught that, PG and misa. The thing about imagery is that if it occurs once, it might mean nothing, twice it still might be a coincidence, but three times you've likely got something going on. When I talk about water imagery, I'm safe because there are dozens of examples of it. My interpretation might be off but the writer/director is definitely using it to enrich and deepen the story. Same thing with sun imagery in this drama, though more prosaic. But feet/leg/shoe - I have a feeling something is going on but don't know what. I can't even remember those scenes.

I know in some cultures, leaving behind shoes is how divorce or separation is symbolized (and in one culture, can't remember which, it's not just a symbol but literally means you're divorcing someone). I'll have to look it up. But we know when Su made the plunge she divorced herself not just from the old boyfriend, but from current reality. Wook giving her shoes was like giving her a new love, a new life, a new reality? But those shoes don't work for her, this new life is awful, people she loves are dying, and her lover seemingly abandons her? We'll have to see, I guess, if So gives her something along the same lines.

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@Barbrey

Oh, I definitely think your water imagery is well argued and well supported, not calling that into question. I just found the new information about her leg hurting close to water an interesting twist. I'm curious to know where they take it!

I do find it interesting that Wang So gave both his mother and Hae Su a hair pin. It makes sense as a gift of affection, but I find it cute how consistent he is; and how he surprises us constantly.

Sometimes he's feral, sometimes he's gentle, sometimes he's sweet, sometimes he's fearsome....

Or, maybe I'm just too enamored with LJG to see straight. That's probably it.

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@Barbrey thank you for your explanation about the shoes. It does makes sense. I also feel that this leg/feet/shoes thing means something, I wish the upcoming episodes will enlighten us.

One thing bothers me though, were that Soo's old shoes that Wook was giving or new ones? If new ones, how could he know that she lost hers? And what was Soo doing in the pond? Did Wook have anything to do with it? I wonder if the show will give us the answer cause now they seem to forget about it.

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Hey everyone, just to add my two cents...
Showing the shoes left behind at the pier could be a symbolism & foreshadowing that she was about to leave her old life behind and step into someone else's shoes (shoes here being a symbolism of another person's life/situations)

And when wook gave her the shoes and she wore them, she's literally stepping into someone else's shoes (Hae Soo's life) No more Go Ha Jin...

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@silvereyeliner (why silver, by the way?) - that is my read too. Where I'm having trouble is how the crippled leg fits in, if it does at all, and why it's worse when she's near water, which has been such an iconic image in this show.

I like @Jamie's analysis. The writer has been playing with bits and pieces of water maid myth so there's no reason a little mermaid trope could not come into it, though it's not from the same culture. Little Mermaid and the Korean Yuhwa foundation myth do have more than a few things in common. One I've not mentioned before about Yuhwa is that Hae Mo Su abandons her (in other versions, she abandons him before marrying another prince). So both have this quality of abandonment of the water maid, the Sea/River King's daughter. Yuhwa is tortured and made mortal (so she can be reincarnated like humans), Little Mermaid lives tortured and there's hope she'll gain an immortal soul if the prince can just love her enough. And throughout the mermaid tale, the water calls her back but she stays loyal.

The thing about Moon Lovers though is that she seems to be getting a second chance. Wook didn't love her enough to put her before his family and marry her (in LM, those are the exact conditions for her to achieve humanity and an immortal soul). Is it a coincidence she is tortured and maimed simultaneous with him putting his sister and mother ahead of her and in effect abandoning her? Wouldn't this be the point in the Little Mermaid Story where the water calls out to her to return home, all Su can expect now is pain, accentuating the pain in her leg?

This is reflected in the prior scenes, Lady Oh saying let's leave, go 'home', Su trying to get them both out, etc., back to the river through the underground cavern and failing.

I guess I'm wondering if the crippled leg worsening near water is not still the siren's call of going home, he has abandoned you, you'll die. She herself says that this water slave life has been a limbo, between life and death, because she can't die ( her hold on life, 'don't I deserve to live?', 'I can't die' is very strong) but she's afraid of living this historical life full of pain and fear and taking a step wrong that could alter history for the worse.

I'm really stretching with this analogy but just trying to figure out what the writer is thinking regarding the crippled leg and whether she is drawing on the LM and if so how that would fit. Thanks to all for thinking this through with me!

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More support for @Barbrey from Andersen's Little Mermaid (http://www.andersen.sdu.dk/vaerk/hersholt/TheLittleMermaid_e.html):

Like the Little Mermaid, Hae Soo comes out of the water to a prince's palace. The Little Mermaid sees a "splendid marble staircase....She swooned away, and lay there as if she were dead....she awoke and felt a flash of pain, but directly in front of her stood the handsome young Prince, gazing at her with his coal-black eyes."

Well, if you populate this scene with a whole lot more seminude princes, it's similar to Hae Soo's royal princely bath awakening.

"She charmed everyone, and especially the Prince, who called her his dear little foundling...The Prince said he would keep her with him always, and that she was to have a velvet pillow to sleep on outside his door....They would ride through the sweet scented woods, where the green boughs brushed her shoulders, and where the little birds sang among the fluttering leaves....And he kissed her on the mouth, fingered her long hair, and laid his head against her heart so that she came to dream of mortal happiness and an immortal soul....Day after day she became more dear to the Prince, who loved her as one would love a good little child, but he never thought of making her his Queen."

The Prince says he'd "sooner choose her" to marry (with an implied sense of impossibility as he calls her "my dear mute foundling") than a princess his parents want to set him up with; but he marries that princess, instead of her.

This is reminding me of Wook so much, to be honest--these little romantic/sexual idylls; then doing what's expected of him by his family and social class. (Abandoning the Water Maid, in Barbrey's analysis.)

What to do with the part after his marriage, when her sisters promise her she can return to her old life under the sea if she strikes a knife through the prince's heart and lets his warm blood bathe her feet--and if she doesn't, she'll die? (She's tempted, but doesn't do it, choosing to turn to sea foam instead.) Does this mean there will be a part in the show when Hae Soo can choose to betray/kill Wook? And that she'll decide to sacrifice herself?

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@Jamie - great stuff, I felt exactly the way you do about her relationship with Wook when I read this yesterday.

It seems unlikely to me the writer would be following the story too exactly, just taking out some imagery and themes perhaps, so we might not get a betrayal at all. OTOH, if So and Wook become enemies, who knows, and surely she does something that makes him smash that bracelet so angrily in the previews.

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@Barbrey: Now that I think about it, these Little Mermaid scenes of idyllic (unrealistic) romance followed by abandonment fits what you said about the other Water Maid in this story, Court Lady Oh, and her relationship with Taejo before he went after the throne.

When he was dying, Taejo flashed back to a scene in his memory every bit as idyllic as described in the Little Mermaid scenes of romance between the Prince and the Little Mermaid. In his vision, Lady Oh is young and lovely and smiling, wearing flowers in her hair on a sunny day in the country; it must be one of the days she described to Hae Soo, when he was her lover, who would help her gather herbs. In those days, he was a general who said he had no ambition for the throne.

Taejo ultimately made the same choice as Wook; as Lady Oh warns Hae Soo, that is what princes do. If women like them pin all their hopes on the princes choosing them over their family, station, and power, they will die broken-hearted.

Truthfully, that's realistic. What we are waiting to see is if So makes the same choice (marrying a princess, claiming the throne); and what happens along the way to drive his decisions; and if he is able to alter the outcome at all, when it comes to Hae Soo, given the restrictions of the age and his class.

I don't want to see this as all about the choices of the men (one of the things I hate about the Little Mermaid story is that she pins her entire existence on the Prince loving and marrying her), but I can't seen how to make it about Hae Soo's volition, except to either choose a particular man (which might result in her leading a life of self-sacrifice like Lady Oh), OR to leave the palace entirely--and then she'd probably starve because what does she know how to do in Goryeo? I guess she could work for an herbalist or tea merchant? Also she'd need permission to leave, as a palace servant/slave. She really is in limbo... :(

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Beautifully said, Jamie. It ties in a bit with Lady Hae too. Like the mermaid, she has to watch her prince fall in love with another and gives her blessing as she dies. A huge theme in this drama is the abandonment of women by the men they love, and the first scene in the drama sets us up for it. Su is abandoned by her boyfriend for another woman. Then Queen Yoo is abandoned by the king for another wife at a supremely vulnerable moment. Lady Hae is abandoned by Wook for Su. Lady Oh by the king for the dynasty. And Su again, this time by Wook, who won't forsake his family to save Su's life, and perhaps because of the throne as well. These are variations on the same theme, whether love was once requited or not, the women never stop loving even in abandonment. Su as abandoned water maid in the river - who never stops loving even then - is part and parcel of the same theme.

This is the little mermaid theme, but interestingly, Yuhwa, who I've speculated is Su's first incarnation, in the original river-daughter founder myth, does not stay in love with the first prince, but lives on as concubine to another afterwards.

If the theme remained true to little mermaid, Su should die loving Wook beside that river or at the execution.

But she doesn't die. And that's a recurring quote from her, I can't die, Don't I have right to live?

The two water emerging scenes, one to the princes, the second for So alone. Two different loves.

If Su has a purpose, then, it's because of her refusal to die or give up. And Wang So's fate - whether he'll be the great king of history or fail to take the throne - is entirely dependent on Su. The king is somewhat right that her purpose lay in what she did as he lay dying, the choice she makes. As we saw, she chose So without hesitation. But more than that, for no obvious reason I can see, she chose Goryeo over Wook.

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@Barbrey

How could I have forgotten than Queen Yoo was abandoned by Taejo? That crazy Medea scene that launched So's misfortune? All the evilness that followed, from her feeling abandoned?

And that poor Lady Hae had to watch Wook fall in love with Hae Soo and never bore a grudge...

It's clear which camp of the two Hae Soo belongs in.

The first snow of the year is romantic in Korea, a time for romantic declarations, but Lady Hae died on Wook's back in the snow. What is snow but frozen water? (Did you already say this? I can't keep so many things in mind all at once.)

"Yuhwa, who I’ve speculated is Su’s first incarnation, in the original river-daughter founder myth, does not stay in love with the first prince, but lives on as concubine to another afterwards.

"If the theme remained true to little mermaid, Su should die loving Wook beside that river or at the execution.

"But she doesn’t die. And that’s a recurring quote from her, I can’t die, Don’t I have right to live?"

I hope Hae Soo is more like Yuhwa than the Little Mermaid. I just wish we knew whether Yuhwa was happy living on as someone else's concubine.

"...for no obvious reason I can see, she chose Goryeo over Wook."

As part of the founding myth of the country? To use her tremendous gifts for trust, love, compassion, and kindness to steer and bless the beginning of a new era? Because she's smarter on an intuitive level than she is in her conscious mind? Because water flows around obstacles, arriving inevitably at its destination?

P.S. I love the symbolism of Ha Jin stepping out of her shoes into Hae Soo's. Also, as mentioned, Wook presented her with shoes at the outset: I don't know if this applies here, but there is a superstition in Korea that if you give your lover shoes, they will leave you (walk/run away from you).

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@jamie - just love your whole paragraph about intuitive vs conscious, water arriving at its destination, etc. When I said there was no 'obvious' reason for her to choose Goryeo over Wook, I meant in termsof plot, but in terms of a mythic, intuitive reason, your thinking exactly reflects my own. Things that don't always make sense in logical progression, make a great deal of sense on a mythical level, lending an extra layer of pathos and or watching something larger than the key events of the show. Such a pleasure for me when others are seeing the same things as me. Thank you for sharing!

So interesting about the shoes in Korea. Another second lead, in Shopping King Louis, just presented the female lead with a pair of shoes, and he is almost certainly not going to get the girl!

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@Barbrey

I wouldn't have had a clue about the river-maiden mythical aspect of this story if you hadn't shared it with us, so thank you for that! It does take the story to several different levels, and makes it that much more resonant.

The part about something causing a rift in her first love relationship or marriage, for instance, causing her to be condemned and exiled to a stream/river in disgrace. (She leaves him, or he leaves her; it's unclear, much like the raging debate in this comments section, lol.)

Then she becomes a concubine to a king; and later there is a question as to who is actually the father of her son, who becomes the first king of Goguryeo. Wikipedia says she was given the posthumous title of Queen Mother.

But all rivers eventually flow to the sea, which is what I have been worried about, given Hae Soo's beaten-down state. I guess if the story loosely follows the myth, she's headed for an upward arc, for a while at least. One can hope?

Something about Hae Soo's supportive character: why does the sky god fall in love with the water maiden? Is it because he can see himself reflected in her water--she mirrors him?

Both Wook and So fall in love with her fundamentally compassionate and supportive nature, I think. As she tells Lady Hae about her experience doing other people's makeup: "It wasn’t boring at all. It felt like I was someone important. I liked the feeling of someone becoming special, thanks to me. The feeling that I was needed…It was a delusional thought that I could make someone happy."

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@jamie

So many foundation myths are based on the same idea of a marriage between heaven and earth to create a great nation. Water is often part of an earth symbolism. In Korea's case, the Yalu River was the largest river and therefore the lifeblood of the land. Yuhwa is found here. So you have heaven god represented by the royal family - the potential mandate of heaven to rule or lead - married to an earth or water goddess representing the land and people - it's a marriage of equals but with different roles, interdependent on one another to create a successful nation. One is a leader, one a supporter, but both essential. What's often a common feature in these founding myths (possibly because they're made up long after a dynasty has risen then fallen) is that the dynasty's demise is often shown in dissonant factors of the creation myth. Cautionary tale: if the rulers abandon the people/land by not ruling well, not caring, holing themselves up in their palaces, then the dynasty might continue for a long time but will not last forever. Abandoning the river-daughter, or she abandoning the ruler, seems to be part of this dissonance in the founding myth. There's also a matriarchal bent to some myths depending on the culture, in that while it is a male king who rules, it is the women who select the ruler and then lend their support to him. This was true in a lot of First Nations societies here in North America and it seems to have been true for ancient Korea as well.

So Su's role is to choose the ruler by giving him her love and loyalty and support him with the lifeblood of the land and people. The myth seems to tell us that the dynasty would continue forever except for this abandonment theme. Turning your back on Su or Lady Oh is the same as turning your back on Goryeo - the nation no longer comes first. Su turning away from Wook means she has rejected him as king because he's putting his family and himself before the good of the nation.

What is missing from all this is the idea of a child. Apparently in the original BBJX, Ruoxi suffers a miscarriage, and miscarriage has happened as well to Lady Hae and Lady Oh, Su's mothers/mentors. So I'm interested to see what the show does with this. If Su is a reincarnation of Yuhwa, it could be argued she doesn't need a child, because most of the great families in Goryeo are descended from her anyway through her son Jumong, who had an adoptive relationship with Buyo, founded Gogoryeo, and whose sons went on to found Baekje in the south. I don't know.

But yes, there should be an upswing now as Su has already chosen the king, So, and Goryeo over Wook.

Sorry for rambling, thinking it through as I write.

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@Barbrey: I'm really enjoying your thought process!

"...you have heaven god represented by the royal family – the potential mandate of heaven to rule or lead – married to an earth or water goddess representing the land and people – it’s a marriage of equals but with different roles, interdependent on one another to create a successful nation. One is a leader, one a supporter, but both essential."

Well, we can't have a discussion about the union of a sky god and a water goddess without talking about yin and yang, can we?

(The following definitions are all well-known but I got these from Wikipedia.)
If yang is the male force ("positive/active/male principle in nature; the sun; open; overt")...

...and yin is the female force ("negative/passive/female principle in nature; the moon; covert; concealed; hidden; negative; overcast; sinister; treacherous")...

...and they are two complementary, interconnected, and interdependent forces that are necessary to creation...

...then it is Hae Soo's role to be passive and supportive (the traditional "feminine" virtues), and for the men to pursue her.

Not that I think women are treacherous and covert! But it is worth noting that poison has long been considered a woman's weapon (Lucretia Borgia, anyone?), and for good reason: how many women could take on a man in physical combat? And the women of the palace have to plot and work behind the scenes for power, precisely because they don't have overt power.

So here is this thing I've been wondering about Wook for a while: he has always worn water colors (subdued blues, grays, grayish purples) for the most part. He has also been mostly passive, and there is a lot concealed within him. Now we have something treacherous and sinister in his character coming out. Is the writer saying he has been living as yin, not yang? (In which case, he and Hae Soo are not a good match for a fruitful union.) And can he become yang? He has to act if he wants her, which he has never been good at.

And why do both men want her? She sees Wook's burden of family protection, expresses compassion, vows never to add to his burden. She understands So's pain of rejection, knows he's not a man who enjoys killing, sees a human, not a wild animal. They can be the best version of their inner selves with her: she reflects it back to them. She can give emotional support and strength to either of them.

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@jamie

So glad you mentioned yin and yang, which I know nothing about btw, but it does seem to fit in some sense - though I'm not sure the writer is using that as a basis because aside from being supportive I don't see Su fitting hardly any of the other things.

Why is Su attracted to both and why are they attracted to her? Mythically, she's one-half of a founding couple; the other half must be a king. Not just any king, but one that can lead the nation to a state of concrete stability. If it's part of Su's purpose to choose that king, it is also part of the king's purpose to choose her. It's fate operating big time.

There were always two contenders to be Gwangjong (a name that could belong to any of the princes) - Wook and So. After two brief reigns of the CP and Yo, the next in line to be the king, named Gwangjong whoever he was, was actually 8th prince Wook because 4th prince So had been disinherited because of his scar.

Wook would have been king after Yo if Su had not cosmetically erased So's scar. The moment she did that, So supplanted Wook in the succession. If you think of Su as the land/people/water of Goryeo, she unwittingly chose So then and there as the next king.

In my opinion, Su had already made her choice at that point, instinctively, but it takes Wook turning his back on her, then plotting against Goryeo, to prove she made the right one consciously.

My God, I just heard that the show will likely not be shown till Tuesday now!

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@Barbrey

Well, I forgot the two most relevant attributes of yin and yang: yin is wetness/water, yang is dryness/sky. :)

Wikipedia again: "Yin is characterized as slow, soft, yielding, diffuse, cold, wet, and passive; and is associated with water, earth, the moon, femininity, and nighttime.

"Yang, by contrast, is fast, hard, solid, focused, hot, dry, and active; and is associated with fire, sky, the sun, masculinity and daytime."

I think the attributes are meant to be seen in complementary pairs, not that each person who is supposed to embody the concept of yin or yang is all those things at once. (Why are the concepts of treachery and the moon and femininity tied together in East Asia? Likely for the same reasons women and the moon and "fickleness" are tied together in Western culture. Still rampantly unfair. Although Wook certainly feels Hae Soo betrayed him in her affections.) And each contains the seeds of the other.

I'm not sure you can get away from the concept of yin/yang in East Asia: it's featured front and center on the South Korean flag.

It's a pity that Hae Soo has to pick a king, since she doesn't want one: or rather the role that comes with the man. But as you say, it's her fate. Just as it's our sad fate to wait until Tuesday!

P.S. I have been wrestling with trying to make the legend of Melusine fit this story somehow, because you have me thinking about all the water maid legends. There are all those scenes of Queen Yoo "letting her hair down" and plotting in her private bath (i.e., being her true self), but I can't quite make it fit, lol. (Yoo, despite her sinister aspect, does love her husband; but that's as far as I can go with this.) Melusine can bestow blessings/children, but leaves if her man betrays her trust and conditions. The Lady of the Lake is a better fit, probably.

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I think it could fit with the Hans Christian Andersen Little Mermaid story (which is certainly used in K-dramas quite a bit): staying there, in Goryeo, is like walking on sharp knives for Hae Soo. She isn't suited for that world, she doesn't belong there. Her prince (Wook) is charmed by her, but he doesn't love her and won't marry her. (He'll marry a princess.) She seems so close to letting go, and letting herself dissolve into sea foam...

River foam?

In the Andersen story, she has no voice, either.

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Yeah, I googled the story yesterday. She has to walk as if knives are stabbing her with every step and she loses her voice. Interesting choice of words needed from the prince - that he will love her above mother, above father, above kingdom. The prince in LM fails just as Wook fails to love her enough. Whereas there's no question So has succeeded in putting her before all others. My question is how long that can last?

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Barbrey thank you for your analysis ever since I've read your comments on the water maiden it has helped me understand the story so much better. The water imagery is everywhere in this story, and the shoes super great observation. Pineapple Gongzhu, the hair pin too, I kept wondering why So always chooses hairpins. The gift men choose for their significant others always holds meaning. Wook gave Hae Soo a bracelet of jade, small, demure, simple almost so no one would suspect that it was a gift from a Prince, it hid her scar and hid under her sleeve so So hasn't really noticed it or commented. Wook's gift is alot like Wook, the water runs deep but the exterior hides it. So on the other hand gives a pin which is visible for the whole world to see, he is open about how he feels about So.

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@Maui - I really like this interpretation.

The giving of jade - whether in bracelet or hairpin - is a traditional way of saying 'I love you' in Korea even now, and accepting that jade is an acceptance of love and acknowledgement the receiver returns the love. So we know Su accepted love from Wook and also know when she returns the bracelet (and he smashes it from that one preview scene), that it's over. When she finally accepts the hairpin from So, she'll be accepting his love instead.

But the jewellery in and of itself - I've always seen the bracelet as 1) a shackle; 2) protection; and 3) covering up truth and imperfection. That's how I see a Wook-Su relationship too. Real love offering protection, but one based on fantasy to a certain degree, and likely to prove more a shackle on a free spirit in the long run.

The hairpin is harder to figure out - there might be something behind it in Korean tradition - but just by the fact it holds up something (hair) and as you say is there for all to see, you might see it as a loving symbol of open support. He was originally going to give one to his mother, but didn't, withdrawing the love and open support he had meant to give her. Su finds it and returns it to him, and he then tries more than once to transfer that allegiance to her with another hairpin. It's pretty obvious I know to all of that when she finally accepts it, it will be wholeheartedly as a symbol of love, support, honesty.

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I was frustrated at how blind Su could be to Wook's weak affection and So's persistent love and action but after reflection I think it's coz she has been betrayed and hurt in the past by her BF and gf as she tells So in cut scenes, where she promises So that coz she's been scarred by trust that if he trusts her first she will not give up on him. So that leads her to stand by Wook until she realizes that not only are his promises empty but self-serving and insincere to her. When she's in she's all in and doesn't give up easily, and hopefully that bodes well for Su-So romance to blossom.

I hope the following episodes show So's betrothal to Crown Prince's daughter waking Su up to the fact that she could lose him and she realises her feeling for him. And that So is really deeply committed to living in peace with her and gives up the throne. And King Gwangjong turns out to be 8th who kills his brothers for the throne -- he seems capable of it seeing he wanted to kill 3rd and 4th princes. If So loses his humanity which he's hanging on to dearly it will be the heartbreak heard around the world and a tragic ending. After all isn't this drama supposed to take a creative license to history?

I hope the rush in the past episodes was to accelerate and give us more of Su-So loving which with so few episodes left is clearly not enough for lovers of this drama.

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Sorry that last line was Hae So.....

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Barbrey thank you for the information on the meaning of jade, it's beautiful and I had no idea......very poetic......

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It IS lovely, isn't it? The things you pick up from dramas ... jade as love, incest is best if you're a Goryeo royal, leg-breaking torture techniques...LOL

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LOL.....

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Wait... It's impossible that So will marry Moo's daughter, at least not on eps 14/15. On the 6 minute teaser, that scene where So draws his sword next to Baekah, they both ride on horse and wear armor.. So's hair there is still ponytail, not a bun..

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Maybe just the betrothal not the marriage then?

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Possibly. That means there's still chance for Yeonhwa to be the queen?

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I think there's a chance whether he marries her second or first. Much depends on who gives him his first son, and it's doubtful he'll be touching the six year old for another seven to ten years, so Yeon Hwa will become the Empress based on her own clanlines and for giving So the heir to the throne.

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Can someone explain to me how the hell did Queen S hair turned white/silver all of a sudden? Did she forget to dye her hair due to sudden death of the king?

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This has been discussed throughout this thread so give a read if you're really interested.

My own impression was she had dispensed with her wig. She's in her mid-forties, most women would be as gray as her. If not a wig, perhaps has washed out the hair dye? Signifying widowhood? Who knows?

The other explanation - hair suddenly turning white - would work if we had ever seen her with some grey hair, but we didn't. Sudden shock combined with an underlying immune deficiency disease can cause healthy hair to fall out and only the white to remain, making it lok like the whole head turned white.

Or they're playing on the myth, never mind the science, of hair turning white with shock. Most likely this last one.

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Thanks for the explanation Barbrey! It makes sense now. :)

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Objectifying Lee Jun Ki is so weirdly satisfying.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuC7j1HetRs

4th prince betrothed to Crown Prince's daughter (10 years old or so)

I think it prompts Su to come to her senses and confess her love for So and the betrothal is cancelled, or at least I hope it is ...

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To my fellow Moon Lovers - look what I saw at Shin-Okubo metro station in Tokyo, right over one of the staircases leading off the platform:

http://oi64.tinypic.com/vnm54x.jpg

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Thanks for sharing.

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Oh wow!! I had no idea ML was airing in Japan too :D

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This is awesome!

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I saw this one too on the 6th! *high five*

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YAAYYYYYY ANOTHER BEANIE WHO SAW IT

*high five*

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I also took some photos immediately. XD
Ah, this love we all have for MLSHR <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

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“If the situation will not change, then I must,” Wook says, resigned. But the only thing that worries him now is the thought of having to betray Su, or so he says.

I believe that the correct translation should be Wook was worried that Su would betray him. So actually the look he had when he saw Su was more of feeling betrayed than guilty.

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This part confused me. The subbed version I watched had me interpreting that Wook was worried about Su betraying him. But then I read the recaps, it's the other way around, Wook was worried about betraying Su!

I think Heads recap is correct as Heads would have recapped it straight from the original broadcast (in Korean) and not relied on reading subs. I'm assuming most recappers are fluent in Korean?

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But Wook worrying about betraying Soo doesn't make sense since he actually had already betrayed her by lying to her about his involvement in Yo's plan. Worrying about Soo's betrayal makes more sense, because that treason plan was his way of testing her (for the 2nd time).

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I also thought Wook was refering to the possibility of Su betraying him, that was why he had the "I knew it!" look on his face when he saw Hae Su at the palace door when they came to attack.

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Wook might be worried about the repercussions of lying to Su?

I agree it makes more sense - I had interpreted it the same as you, @Justina and @banini (below comment) that Wook was worried Su will betray him but well, you know, I'm not Korean and rely on subs which aren't always 100% correct.

Hopefully a fluent fellow Korean beanie can help us clear things up =]

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Whoops, @banini's comment ended up above >.<

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You know what would be cool?

If they did a prequel to this series that details Court Lady Oh and Taejo’s love affair, and then how Queen Mommy Dearest comes into the picture, etc. etc.

It won't happen, of course, because ML: SHR's ratings are too low, but one can dream....

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lets wait and see how Hae Su-Wang So-Yeon Hwa relationship goes. Though Wang So is way more man of action and powerful than his dad... I have a feeling both stories do have common stuff... :)

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Ooo this was really smart from SOOMPI:

55 minutes ago, kyar7jizhenll said:
In MLSHR, it is already hard to communicate between HS-WW as being from different era with different personality and mindsets. HS fell in love with WW warm and caring personality while being dependent on him both emotionally and financially. Although it hurt HS seeing WW turned his back on her, it is very understandable that she could NOT abandon their love as well as would NOT blame Wook for his inability to save her as she believed that WW understood, trusted, respected, loved and cared for her and tried to help her with all his abilities. We, as viewers, compare WW and WS effort on saving her and we saw that WW was lacking but for HS, she would not and should not compare her lover with WS (who is just a friend). In love or familial relationships, it is not right to compare your loved ones with those who are outside. I'm glad that HS did not and it shows her personality strength that she is very grounded and put 100% in relationship. However, she could no longer love WW the way she did after she found out he never trusted, understood her feelings and respected her decisions but instead used her. She lost hope for this love. However, she was not in love with WS yet like WW/ some people thought at this point. There is closeness, caring, friendship, understanding, respect and gratitude but not deep love yet...

---------------

Yeah, I appreciated this about Hae Su to. I think she's being written a lot more nuanced than she's being directed as an actor. Again, the real problem of the show continues to be that the director doesn't show us her motivation and point of view. I have a theory that fandom is obsessed with the show (not just b/c of gorgeous LJK) but b/c we're desperately trying to understand Hae Su.

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+1000

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I thought that was a very insightful comment you quoted Seltzerwater, except that I took issue with one small part of it:

"In love or familial relationships, it is not right to compare your loved ones with those who are outside."

On the contrary, I think that seeing how people outside of our love/familial relationships behave and treat each other (and us) is sometimes the only thing that gives some of us perspective and courage to leave abusive and unfair relationships.

I appreciate the heck out of the rest of that comment, and yours, though.

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@Jamie

Interesting! I think I see it from both points of view. Maybe kyar7jizhenll was saying that Hae Su should not put Wang So into competition with Wang Wook as a healthy appreciation of both relationship. Love does depend on reciprocity to deepen, but also looking at a "wook did this, but so did that" kind of pros and cons ledger maybe unhealthy too?

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"...looking at a 'wook did this, but so did that' kind of pros and cons ledger maybe unhealthy too?"

Quite possibly. :)

I have mixed feelings about all this, because it's complicated: maybe it's not the healthiest thing when the stakes are fairly small, as it often is. Then it's just a "grass is always greener on the other side" thing; and you could credibly talk about staying loyal to your partner.

But sometimes the stakes are larger. Then you can fairly ask someone, why do you stay in a relationship with an addict/adulterer/abuser/etc. when there are other people who will treat you better? What does loyalty mean in that case?

In this show, the stakes are huge.

Certainly, we drama watchers are keeping a ledger when it comes to the two male leads.

I know this is not quite the same thing, but if Hae Soo could know everything we viewers know (which is not everything there is to know), would we still urge her not to compare their actions?

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It's sad I had to jump off the Wook-Su ship, but I'm happy on the So-Su ship and can't wait to see their relationship bloom!

I'm also sad to see Wook become a bad guy, but hot damn, he looks hotter the badder he gets! I keep staring at him when he's making calculative decisions. His scheming look is ssssooo hooot!

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Hope to see some Su-So PASSION AND SKINSHIP!!!

The trailer and spoilers say a REAL KISS is coming -- it better not just be a mutual peck.

We have waited for so long for Su-So romance we really need to see the passion in their relationship

To make objectifying LJK is satisfying, we really need this!!!

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I find myself rewinding the preview for ep 14 from the SBS version. It gives me hope. (squee!). But I agree with you Britney - I want to see a REAL KISS and PASSION AND SKINSHIP with those two!

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Wow, the thirst is real hehehe .... I've watched several LJK's dramas over the years (My Girl, Iljimae, Hero, Arang, Two Weeks - awesome!, Joseon Gunman), I can't even remember one that had proper smoochies. If the production team would go by the original novel's route I guess I have to prepare my poor fragile heart, hopefully it'll still be intact by then

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Su is a modern 20th century girl, So is achingly, desperately, in love with her. After all his persistence (and making us viewers wait in agony for so many episodes) when they finally confess their love it has to be a REAL, DEEP KISS!!!

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He definitely had proper smoochies in Scholar Who Walks The Night, though! Episode 5, if you know what I mean.

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The only deeply emotional moment from the OTP in Scholar that I can recall off the top of my head is Lee Jun Ki tenderly holding what's her face in the jail cell. Ripped my heart asunder.

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I can't not help to see this character from different point of view. So I'm just gonna say it. I want Wook to be a king rather than So.
When Wook and So changing scenes regards their reason to be King, I don’t think has been judged fairly. The scenes try to make Wook look like he doesn't prioritize Suu, and the other has. maybe the scenes succeed serve that purpose. But is that mean So will be a better king than Wook ?

Wook has been portrayed as responsible person, and has accepted this role for his whole life. He cares about other people to a degree it feels like obligatory for him. Unlike Yo who’s ambition to be king is obvious, Wook is not an ambitious person to begin with. After rain ceremony, where YH tried to make him jealous over So, he told himself “there must be a place in the palace, I am designated to fill”. Many think that this is a hidden ambition Wook has. For me, this is just his righteousness try to overcome his own jealousy. But even if it’s the former, who can blame him? this is a man who always try to do everything right by other people expectation, isn’t it normal to feel that you deserve something ? Poor Wook. Despite all his quality, he’s a man with no luck (not with marriage, not with family status).

Then shits began to happen. He has no power to save Suu from forced marriage (hell, even So can’t), trapped in political intrigue that force him to choose between the women he loves and the family he holds responsible for, not to mention humiliation towards his family. Lost control of his own world, he realized one thing. Doing the best you can is ain’t enough. You need to be THE BEST to get everything around you under control. This late self-realization has created an ambitious Wook. Is that a bad thing ? Well, to be fair, every inspirational figure who made a mark on the world has it. It takes ambition to lead. King Taejo never consider him as strong contender for CP, despite knowing he’s the most literate one, because he’s not driven enough ,always a passive one. That’s why King Taejo favor So to take the throne because he knows So quite a rebel. But he has so much potential now to be King. He’s smart, tactical, driven more than ever, responsible and knows his priorities to begin with. for Wook to said that he did it for Suu sake is not lie. He did want it because his disappointment and part of his redemption. Wook ambition was catalyzed by Suu. It may has grown to something more now. But if he is destined for King, I can understand why it can no longer serve solely on Suu side.

So, between the man who wants the power to win someone, and the man who wants the power to have, well, power to protect his people (or redeem his sin), I don’t see the logic why the former is better than the latter.

side note: i always think the complexity of Wook character should have been developed as So character. btw, So will not kill to win the girl, but Wook will kill to win the girl. well, who's the bad boy now?

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Illuminating insights, and I agree that as it stands, Wook is no less capable of being King.

As for why Taejo favored So over, say, the more literate Wook, one big factor is the whole fate/destiny issue. So was born under the star of the king, so that seemed to have guided Taejo's actions. Wook was not.

But yes, there is no compelling reason now for So to step up and grab the throne. He's already made it abundantly clear how little he thinks of it (unlike Wook), and with Hae Soo well on her way to returning his affections, there's even less reason for him to harbor those ambitions. Something should be happening in the upcoming episodes to make So want the throne.

I only hope it's for a thoughtful, compelling and rational reason, rather than just solely for Hae Soo's sake, which would trivialize the kind of man he is. Wang So is more than just a romantic lead and I would like to see the full extent of his ambition, power and ruthlessness unleashed as he battles his way to the throne.

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Apparently he comes back to save Baek Ah... Wook and Yo declare him as traitor and So decided to come back and save his brother. Meanwhile his wife/lover was killed or lost a child (not sure how but a female is involved) due to the scheming duos plans. All these leads him to killing bunch of people and becoming king as he has support of people and military.

He did revolt with that general whose daughter is married to Eun. Evil duo was responsible for that also. hence the general support him with military.

He really was a powerful, just and good king well save for killing the family.

Read it somewhere while searching for the history of gwajang though not sure how historically correct it is.

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Interesting. Is this historical or based on the C-novel?

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Historical... I tried to read up as many article on gwajang as I could find.

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+1000 to your post and especially that last line.

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With Barbrey, I would agree with you that Wang So is so much more than just a romantic lead, so I hope the rationale for his ascend to the throne is good. LJG generally avoids solely romantic roles, though, if you think about it. So I doubt he'll change his M.O.

That being said, could one not argue that Wang So has always been motivated by love? He has always wanted to return to Songak. He has always wanted to be included and valued as a family member. He has always wanted the love of his mother - which he now transferred to Hae Su.

I suppose a good reason would be (1) a sense of filial duty to his father's legacy and affection for Mu, as well as (2) seeing how poorly Yo will be as a king, which will inspire him to (3) ascend the throne to make the kingdom a better place....which would fall in line with his reform measures?

And my guess will be that he marries Yeon Hwa in order to save Hae Su in some way...no clue what way. But, that's wild speculation.

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Your guess is as good as mine...: D

Agree Wang So has so far been motivated by the need for love and acceptance. To flesh in the character arc, the writers need to chart his growth from here on out in a realistic manner. I'm here for the writers' reinterpretation of history. Hope they don't disappoint us.

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Wook will just be another Taejo in terms that he is capable of sacrificing people, even his loved ones, to achieve his goal. I can't say that So will/won't do the same in the future, but Wook definitely will. We have seen here he's capable of sacrificing Soo for his ambition (sorry, I don't buy the family excuse. He could conceal his sister's crime and at the same time at least TRY to save Soo. He didn't try because it would taint his image and as he said, the road to the throne should be flawless). He is very capable of sacrificing his own sister to Yo. What will prevent him from sacrificing anyone that he deems necessary if he becomes the King? I don't say that So will be a better king, but Wook definitely isn't better than So at this point.

Also, I think KHN's acting is good enough to show us Wook's true feeling during the rain ceremony. YH didn't accuse him for nothing.

Of course there's nothing wrong with the ambition to become a king. What matters is the way it takes to become one. Wook is not blamed for wanting the throne, but his way of getting there is by sacrificing people (Soo, Lady Oh indirectly, YH, even Yo, and ultimately Moo) and this should give insight of what kind of king he's going to be.

On your side note, if they give Wook's role to So now, I will stop watching because nothing will keep my interest anymore. He's the bad and ambitious guy, he wants the throne, he will fight and we already know he will become the king. Great but bye show.

What keeps me (and I think most audience) watching, romance aside, is to see what it takes for this too-good-to-be-true So with 0% ambition to change into a ruthless Gwangjong. How a man with 100% dedication for his love will eventually abandon her. The anticipation of these drastic changes is the key that keeps people occupied, and for that I'm 100% satisfied with the way they develop So and Wook character.

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A year has passed but Hae Soo’s legs aren’t recovered yet. Were those hurt that bad? Also, I’m curious about Ji Mong / homeless man in 21st century. The script is lack of detail but I keep watching this drama. LJK’s acting is very impressive. Thanks for the recaps. I wonder how it will end.

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Will praying for a happy ending give us one for Hae Su-Wang So??? Let's all pray for it regardless...

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I believe so. Goryeo most likely had brutal torture methods, as did the rest of the ancient world.

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Yeah, from what I've seen in other sageuks, the most common torture method was to put two wooden boards between legs, then slowly stretch them to either side pushing each leg outward and sideways till broken. No doubt that's what caused the bad leg, though I'm still surprised they didn't show a scene of her beinv beaten, and that torture process about to happen, with the boards between her legs, even though we didn't need the more detail than that.

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Couldn't help but think of Little Mermaid's tail being split in two because of above discussion.

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Owww....

But yes, I felt ep 11 suffered from not showing more of Hae Soo's turmoil and inner conflict amidst all the fast moving palace developments. This should have been included.

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Also, we have to remember, right after being tortured. She kneeled for 2 days in protest for Lady Oh. This definitely did not help poor Su.

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Assuming that they used the leg torture method, which we always see in Korean historical dramas, on her, then it is quite realistic that she hasn't recovered, as the torture breaks or dislocates the leg bones. It is unlikely that she received any medical treatment to set her broken leg.

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I wonder, what do you guys think of LJK with a moustache? In sageuks, the guys usually start out with no facial hair but by the end of the show they'll have some :p

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You should watch Joseon Gunman, he sported fake stache, still abundantly good looking

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Many thanks for the recommendation!! Will definitely catch it when I have time *O*

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side note, does anybody know if Moon Lovers will air on normal time on Monday or not? Saw an article and says they're having baseball on Mondays during the same time slot as ML and it's going to continue for 3 weeks??

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Yes I saw it too. The international channels should be able to still air on normal time, but if it's meant to be aired simultaneously with SBS then I don't think we'll have show on Monday.

I think they will air 2 episodes back to back on Tuesday. I don't think they will air 1 episode/week and extend the show because usually they have arranged the schedule for a new drama that would take the old one's time slot. But not sure though, maybe they will extend the show. Which is nice because finally MLSHR can break free from the shadow of *cough* the-drama-who-should-not-be-named *cough*

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I dont think international version will air, youku isnt airing for sure because they're airing same time as Korea. If they do air outside of Korea it might affect domestic ratings...

Where did you see they're airing 2 episodes on Tuesday?? If that's the case that'd be great

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only some opinions circulating on social media. They did air eps 1-2 or eps 2-3 back to back in one day, right? Maybe they can do it again this time.

Nothing has been confirmed yet?

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It's not confirmed i guess till monday :(

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I am going to throw a FIT if I have to wait an extra 24 hours to get my next hit of LJG.....ergh....ML:SHR!!!!

They TORTURE us with the long awaited kiss, and then they put BASKETBALL on?!

Unacceptable!

Let's riot.

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Absolutely sucks that Korea doesn't have a sports channel and they always push dramas out of the way when they have a match. :-(

I read that if the game finishes on time it might air...

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Yes please let's riot. I don't think I can handle waiting. I m really trying here to keep it together till Monday.

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Riot!

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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

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Point us in the right direction and we rioters will follow....who's with me?

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But does anyone know if this is happening to all dramas in that timeslot? Or just SBS/Moon Lovers?

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Just SBS

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Just checked both Naver & Daum's TV schedules, and they list MLSHR's Ep 14 as airing on Tue at 10pm KST.

On the other hand, ONETV's schedule still has Eps 14 & 15 airing on Mon & Tue as per normal.

I guess we'll only know for sure on Mon itself.

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I'm hoping other places dont air the episodes before Korea cos it could really drop their ratings...

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they got to follow sbs pace for sure, since its same time broadcast format.. if sbs dont air new ep, other international sources wont get to air too..

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Maybe it's just me, but I want to see Joon Gi play a psychopath or serial killer or badass villian in his future project. He has the potential. I am so thirst for it after his semi twisted character in Time Between Dog and Wolf.

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It's not just you, trust me ;) Jun-ki fans here have been saying it for years, we're curious about what we'd be like in a villainous role like Kang Dong-won in Kundo or Ha Jung-woo in the Chaser.

After the end of episode 8, though, I don't think we'd survive oppa taking a villainous turn because he is way too hot for his own good in 'bad' mode.

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THIS would be amazing. The first time I would be rooting for the villain...

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I’ve been (over)thinking the relationship differences Hae Su has with our two princes

Hae Su & Wang Wook’s relationship
- He helps her out of her room
- He asks So to let her go after the assassin is killed
- He tells her about the time he had to kill an intruder
- He helps her with the scar ointment **
- He fails to rescue her from Yeon Hwa’s beating **
- He tries to kiss her **
- He sends her a love poem
- He walks with her in the snow
- He attempts to save her from the bandits
- He gives her soap making ingredients
- He teaches her his name**
- He gives her secret hugs**
- He meets with her in secret at the cave
- He asks her to marry him**
- He tries to calm her down when she’s panicked about So
- He fails to exonerate her, and kills the evidence to save her**
- He walks away from her during her protest**
- He ignores her for a year after her accusation of attempted murder
- He tests her loyalty**
- He uses her as a pawn to trap So**

You know, they actually DO have conversations that I vaguely recall. In the list above, anything with a ** are things I actually remember off the top of my head and is part of my collective memory of their relationship, while the other things are remembered when I re-watch the episodes. Granted, I might be biased because I was a So-Su shipper from the beginning, but I noticed two things (1) most of the above are romantic gestures but few are (2) substantive conversations. The actors sold it to me that they were in love, and I’m not arguing against that, but I also find their relationship kind of forgettable. I mean, once the squeal moments are over, they fade into the background. By contrast…..

(to be continued in the next post)

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I TOTALLY forgot about the bracelet he gave her. Whoops.

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oh my god I wonder if she's STILL wearing the bracelet even after all this time. And after what he did.

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There's also

- He tells her after his wife was dead, that he did love her after all but just didn't recognise that that feeling was love

- after Baek-ah warns her about the love poem, they mutually apologise and admit their fault in their forbidden love and then they go back and individually put their things from each other away.

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@pogo

Ah, great other mentions! I was focused mainly on the situations that would bring them closer together rather than drive them apart; but, you're right that those two events are important to the development of their relationship.

I know a lot of people have strong opinions about Wook's emotional infidelity coupled with his too-late confession that he did love his wife; but, I think I'm just a tad more cynical.

I think he was grateful to her for all that she did for him, but I don't think he was ever in love with her. When spouses die, the surviving spouse feels quite a bit of regret if the marriage wasn't a happy or loving one. It's just part of grieving. I think he cared about Lady Hae, but I think he's actually in love with Hae Su. :)

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I think he cared about Lady Hae, but I think he’s actually in love with Hae Su.

I'd amend that to, he loved Lady Hae (if caring, concern and missing her when she's gone are to be considered 'love' albeit not the kind of romantic love she obviously felt for him, though he says otherwise in the throes of his initial grief and guilt) but yes, Su is the one he's IN love with.

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Well, Wook was actually the one that killed the assassin (with a flying dagger to the forehead) and saved Hae Soo, which was quite impressive. Wang So was far more ambiguous in the encounter: though he tells the assassin to go ahead and kill her, I think he was angling to free her AND capture the assassin. Why was Wang So so incredibly pissed at Hae Soo afterward? Because that live assassin was his ticket back to living at the palace, according to the deal he made with the Crown Prince.

Then came Wook's story about killing the intruder when he was 11, which was THE substantive conversation he had with her, and I think incredibly significant in developing his feelings for Hae Soo and also a foreshadowing of their future:

Wook tells Hae Soo he first killed a man the same way when he was 11— a thief who entered their house: "I protected my family with my own hands. I was happy. I was proud." (He doesn’t look happy. His lips are trembling, like he's going to cry.) "If a prince can’t even do that, what good is he?"

Soo: "You still remember it, though. You can’t forget it, so how can you be comfortable with it? It’s obvious you’re just holding it in and living with it." (That’s right! That’s what he does!)

Wook: "It is the burden I was born with, so I will have to endure it."

Soo: "I won’t latch onto you, so don’t worry."

Wook: "What?"

Soo: "I shouldn’t weigh you down so you can live lightly. So, you don’t need to worry about me. I can live very well on my own."

Would he have fallen in love with her if not for this conversation? Later, when he protects his family by betraying (which means killing) her, it is clear it is destroying his soul, but he thinks it is the burden he must bear. She absolves him of responsibility to her from the beginning. Does it comfort him at all to remember it later?

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(Continued from the post above)

Hae Su & Wang So relationship
- He rescues her from falling off a cliff**
- He prevents her from slapping Eun
- He threatens to execute her if she forces him to apologize to her
- He threatens to kill her if she reveals that she saw his scars in the bath**
- He attempts to rescue her from the assassin
- He admits to killing people during his tantrum at the prayer altars, she sympathizes**
- He talks with her about the palace/family on the mountaintop during lunch
- He saves her from Yeon Hwa’s beating**
- He teases her about being ungrateful for being saved from the beating**
- He talks with her about Goryeo stars and his new life in the palace
- He chats with her during her visit to the Palace
- He partakes in her rescue mission to avoid a political marriage**
- He finds an alternative to the political marriage (that fails)
- He chides her for harming herself to avoid the political marriage**
- He shows her Dongji palace, discussing palace life**
- He advises her on committing to her decision to work in the palace**
- He says he hates the way she looks at him
- He tells her he will make her his after she covers his scar**
- He confides in her about the change in people’s behavior towards him after the rain ritual**
- He force kisses her**
- He takes her to the beach, discussing the possibility of leaving the palace**
- He reaffirms that he considers her “his”
- He tries to kiss her but backs off
- He drinks the poisoned tea in order to save her from suspicion**
- He visits her in prison**
- He stands by her during her protest**
- He talks to her one last time before being deployed as an envoy
- He tries to find solutions to rescue her from her harsh life upon his return**
- He proposes marriage to her
- He takes action after she tells him about the rebellion plot
- He confesses to killing his brother while crying

You know, for being a man of action, the majority of his relationship with Hae Su is in conversations. Yet, when he needs to act, he does - and is about as effective as his bargaining power at the time is. For example, he had really little bargaining power to prevent Hae Su’s political marriage to his father; but upon returning from China, he had much more bargaining power since the CP needs allies. Like, their friendship is for the most part believable. And their progression to love is also believable because they have a foundation of honest, insightful, and deep conversations. I don’t think I’ve even listed all of their interactions, but somehow their relationship feels weighty and powerful. It isn’t forgettable.

Anyway, I don’t claim to have a comprehensive argument as to why I find HS/WS’s relationship compelling.

What do you think?

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Fantastic list, PG!

Of course I find it compelling. OTOH, because Su loved Wook, So was friendzoned, and despite her very real attraction to him, we see her struggling to keep him friendzoned. Also because she's afraid of him as Gwangjong. So her reasons to me are also compelling.

But get on with it, Su!

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Rats! I knew I forgot one key conversation:
- He asks her in the boat if she knew what her purpose in life was.

I seriously, deep question there, buddy

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I loved that boat conversation! It really showed how he sees her as an equal despite all his earlier bluster about her not knowing her place.

The you are mine thing is what he keeps saying over and over again, but I think he means "I am yours" because basically anything Hae Su would ask of him, he would do.

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@Seltzerwater

Oh, totally! I'm so glad that you said that because it has been bugging me why Wang So says it so many times, yet I never feel offended when he says "You are mine."

Even during the forced kiss, his desperate belied his words. I think he was actually saying "You cannot betray or reject me because I will have no one else. I am fully yours. If even you turn your back to me, I will truly be alone."

You're right, he means the opposite of what he actually says, which makes sense because he did the same thing when he spoke with her in the prison "I'm not a pathetic man who drinks poison for a girl." Yeah, right, buddy. You keep saying' that......

I mentioned in another post that I don't think Hae Su realised in episodes 9-10 how much power she wields over Wang So because of her kindness towards him. Even Lady Oh told her, and she was a bit blasé about it. And someone else (gosh, I wish I remembered who) asked rhetorically "Don't these people know how safe they are merely because So cares for them?" So true.

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*desperation

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Wonderful listing...

Her relationship with So does seem to progress slowly and has come to the trusting and deep relation now that we know of.

But her relationship with Wook seems very random. Its like she saw him and suddenly decided... he is cool.. i should ask liking him. I understand the appeal Wook feels for her but her dedication for Wook is something i cant understand no matter how much i try.

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These are such great lists! Thank you PineappleGongzhu

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From the start, I am more interested in 'the ascend of Wang So' to the throne than his love affair with the lady from the 21st century. The true character of Wang So as a great ruler is slowly unfolding. I just love how he protected the palace whilst awaiting for the Crown Prince to come.

Now I feel like re-watching the drama from the 1st episode to reminish the development of this character from an emotionally unstable, cold yet strong warrior to what he is now as confident, kindhearted, strong-willed prince and looking to his unleashing more of his characters as great ruler of Goryeo.

Lee Joon Ki is a brilliant actor. He conveying the character Wang So in such amazing way. Definitely the best actor of his time.

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If i was put on wooks' situation i would rather take mother and soo and leave the palace.just because he had to protect his sister(in 11th ep) he is doing all sort of things

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Just sharing for the sake of MLSHR

http://goo.gl/ooMfnt

A team of MLSHR fans is conducting a demand survey to estimate the demand for a Blu-ray/DVD release of MLSHR. South Korea has a small market for such media so fans have to show that there is enough interest for it to convince the creators for a release. You can help out by taking this survey to let them know how many copies they may be able to sell once it comes out.

Participation in this survey does not obligate you to actually purchase the product, and you can make that decision later when every detail of the set is finalized. Right now, we just need to show them how much we want to see all the deleted scenes, BTS, and outtakes!

The bigger the response, the easier it will be to request for all of those! Please participate on the survey!!

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man, I love the music director for this show. I'm not a huge fan of the insistent pop soundtrack for the romantic scenes, but I understand it's part and parcel of being Kentertainment where it's like every single part of the show must be sellable (hah, like the Indians with the buffalo).

I watched the scene where Wang So proposes to Hae Su again, and the instrumental music was used SO WELL. The background is completely silent until Hae Su asks Wang So if he would still leave the palace if he were king. It builds in volume & intensity when So answers Su's question, no he doesn't care about position all he wants is to live with her in peace. Then he places the hairpin in Hae Su's hand and that's when the piano chords begin. They're are very insistent notes.

I think this is all great, because the music director works closely with the director and editor and the direction was, build as much tension in this scene as possible. Leave no doubt that Hae Su is truly torn when Wang So proposes to her. Theres this moment where she's wavering and the music really supplements that. Anyways, love the instrumental in this show. Kudos to the music guys.

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I really love the instrumental music for this drama, too! It's rare because usually I find it intrusive or a bit underwhelming.

But, although they cycle amongst 5-7 main instrumental themes, they all fit very well for the scene they are in.

I'm really excited to buy the instrumental music when it comes out!

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Yeah, the instrumentals are love. I wish so hard that they'd used more of those instead of the jarring pop songs, especially during crucial scenes like the one where Su's doing So's makeup.

I promise, Korean and international viewers are not so stupid that we can't tell that a scene is meant to be romantically charged without a human voice singing lyrics telling us so!

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Now I know this drama is good. I am no longer bothered with those ridiculous comments such us poor execution, poor editing, close ups, forced kiss hhahaha is all I can say for those comments. I have decided to re-watch this drama from episode one and I am seeing the drama in a new light.

I can say this one of the best dramas in k drama land and Prince Wang So is one of the best characters. I am in awe of this character. The execution of this character is just brilliant.

Another, the musical of this drama is amazing and OSTs are as great.

It may be unsolicited advise. But I's say Take the drama as it is and ignore those ridiculous comments. Believe me, you would enjoy this drama even more.

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When watching a drama I try to keep it to a simple formula, if the characters allow me to become emotionally invested in them, the chance is high I will stick to the Drama. I try not to focus too much on the flaws especially if it starts to take away from the experience...and that feeling of being transported there....there is so much to love in this interpretation of Moonlovers, and I'm enjoying the ride.

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I'm not trying to pile on this drama. I watch faithfully and look forward to it every week. The inconsistencies and structural problems have already been covered well by Heads and numerous commenters. I concur w/ them all. But I'm still addicted to this show. Although I'm pretty sure I catch only about 60 percent of what's going on, despite the subtitles.

Re: the acting, LJK is superb. KHN is also quite good, and I'm not overly bothered by IU (whom I've liked better elsewhere). Of the princes, only Nam Joo-hyuk and Kim San-ho seem natural. The others are unbearable. But I blame the poor acting on the director more than the actors themselves.

But I'm chiming in now to see if there are any other lurkers out there who have been skeptical about Wook and the Wook-Su romance from the beginning. I always wondered if Wook and the real Su had a romantic relationship (or possibly an antagonistic relationship) prior to the arrival of Ha Jin in Su's body. IIRC, he was pretty persistent in the early episodes about asking whether she remembered *anything* and he was already very attentive to her. In any case, I never believed that he was the knight in shining armor he purported to be. It just always seemed like something else was going on.

I am interested in the succession battle, so I'm not complaining about the focus on that aspect of the story. But I so wish that we knew more about the previous Su (and where her spirit, or essence, is now) and more about the time travel. And maybe more about why Ha Jin didn't resume any efforts to get back to today after she was banished as a slave.

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The speculation that Wook and real Su had a relationship of some type has been out there for some time, but I have yet to see any proof of it since my own suspicions were aroused in the early episodes. In fact, subsequent episodes seem to bear out that they didn't have a relationship earlier. I myself thought she had been brought into the house to become Wook's second wife because Lady Hae couldn't have children, so he of course had an interest in her, but that speculation didn't bear out, and it seems she had been there for some time. I'm really not clear on if she's been there for years or just came recently. I thought Chae Ryung's observations about prior Hae Su were interesting too - a girl well-behaved on the outside but sneaking off to meet men or peek at the princes on the inside? Don't know if that's true either because Chae Ryung says she wasn't that bad. The show seems to have raised these questions but not answered them, to date anyhow, so I guess we'll have to wait to see if there was anything about prior Hae Su that was interesting.

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It's my crack theory that the murder of Hae Su is gonna be the reveal at the end of the series. In episode one, Ha Jin acknowledges that Hae Su must have died in order for her to arrive in Goryeo. It's the central inciting incident of the ENTIRE show, so if they don't pay it off, I will be soooo mad and write many many fanfics where the culprit is revealed.

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We think alike! I speculated about that early in the series, too, but I'm not holding out too much hope because I think it would have been revealed when she was living at Wook's house. We seem to have gone past that poor forgotten girl. Although Chae Ryung might have more to tell us if she fe-enters the tale. I miss her! Or it might be part of a reveal at the end. Fingers crossed for the pay off!

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I remember your speculation! I even thought it was totally plausible that original-Su was maybe a second wife/concubine in the making.

and tbh I think it's still plausible even if original-Su herself was never told about it, or they were waiting for her to be a little older before they broached the idea. Though yeah, nothing that passed between Wook and Lady Hae really suggests it other than maaaybe Lady Hae asking Wookto marry Su/Queen Hwangbo to accept Su as a daughter-in-law.

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@pogo

I think it was a conversation between Wook and Lady Hae, where one or the other of them proposes he marry Su, that confirmed it hadn't been a plan between them prior to Ha Jin's arrival as Su. Too bad, as I really thought they were going there.

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This makes so much sense, but it had not occurred to me. Thank you. And thank you to Barbrey as well.

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I remember seeing speculation in the first week's recap threads, about whether original-Su was brought into the house to test out whether she'd make an appropriate concubine for Wook to have children with since his wife couldn't have any. Like they might not have actually told her that but kept her there to broach the idea when the time came.

Literally the first scene in which Wook and present-Su come face to face had me wondering about the way he looked at her when he burst in, whether there was something between the two of them before or whether that was just Kang Ha-neul's chemistry with IU that made it seem that way.

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I find the scene in the library when Wook asks Hae Soo after the "accident", whether she should stay or go back to her clan very interesting. The way I read that scene, Wook was testing Hae Soo. He believed she was making up the whole I lost my memories in order not to get in trouble for spying on the Princes. You can see he is laughing a little at her answers when he asks about her visit to the Princes' bathouse. His test is when he says to her "I didn't know you very well before, should I send you back to your Clan or set a separate living space for you?"....First Wook looks her straight in the eyes when he asks this....If Hae Soo had not truly lost her memories , she would probably speak up about not knowing each other well if they both where already in a relationship. Which I suspect as well as it being the real reason the original Hae Soo's death drowned. There could be a multitude of plausible scenarios here about the consequences of how far their relationship went before Hae Jin arrived and reincarnated in her body. What would make Hae Soo kill herself? Her answers include new words, and a way of delivering at odds with the original Hae Soo. In fact, 8th Prince calls her on it, "You seem like a different person...." Obvously, this means he did know Hae Soo well to pick up on the change so quickly. Also, when he is putting the ointment on her neck, he seems surprised that Hae Soo is feeling shy about him touching her......he acted too comfortable with Hae Soo in that scene like someone who is already used to being that close to Hae Soo.

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Yes!

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Agree!

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@Pogo, yes, I guess that's what had me wondering as well. The way he looked at her with penetrating concern.

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/sigh

We're never going to get an answer about why original Su was in that bathing pool in the first place, are we?

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Nope. Though I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. I tend to expect too much of pre-produced dramas, but I've learned to tone down my expectations.

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Is it really true that ep 14 won't be aired on monday?
and instead be aired simultaneously on tuesday with ep 15?
If that's the case, this news is so heartbreaking!!?????
This means that I will be waiting till wednesday before it will be posted online.?
Waaaah!!!???

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Episode 4 (when So wrecked out the stones out of anger towards his evil mom):
Soo to So: You probably won't be forgiven. Still, I understand you.

Episode 13:
So to Soo: If I came to you, I didn't think you would forgive me. But I thought you would understand.

He still remembers her words. *sobs*
I'm glad someone on IG pointed this.

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Yes! This!! I was coming here to say this...!! I am so glad I'm not the only one who noticed!

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So also remembered her words from their early meeting when he stopped her from hitting 10th prince -- she said "if you're higher up shouldn't you be more concerned about responsibility?" And after So saved Su and 14th prince after the gang tryingto cut 14th prince's arm off, later So lectured Jung about being responsibility as a prince.

And when So asked Su when she found him sleeping in the boat if she thought about why she is living here, she echoed his words that she didn't want to live a life controlled by others, the words he said to her when he whisked her away on a horse after the princes found out she was to be married off by her family "I simply don’t want to see you live a life where you’re controlled by others. That kind of life is not worth living.”

They influence each other!!

But did anyone find it odd that when So found out that her family had arranged Su's marriage, he told the other princes that it was a Hae family affair and nothing could be done, and even when she entered the palace so the princes wouldn't defy a royal order and be killed, So told Baek-Ah that she had to endure her choice while Baek-Ah pleaded with him to help her? This was after the wrecking of the prayer stones incident, she brought him his meal, and he saved her from Yeon Hwa's beating and called her his "person". It seemed kind of strange to then leave her to her fate while the other princes fretted over it and have to be convinced to help her.

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@MLSH fanfanfan,

The last part, i think its because they really cant think of any "proper plausible way" to rescue Soo out of her plight in the most legit & best way while keeping status quo..

They did resort to running (which So and the rest of the princes did helped out), but the consequence of it is, Soo got to be on the run forever.. is this a happy ending? maybe yes, since she dont have to marry, but her fate isnt any better either..

and to make it worse, during the run only then they realize is the King marriage with Soo.. His power is everywhere, if running away from a commoner isnt scary enough, im sure running from the king would be a forever thingy (like being chase as a fugitive till the day she return or die and see the corpse) and to make it worse, the prince is involved and all of their heads would roll for helping her escape (since they are caught in the act and defying royal command if she were to escape) which is why she surrendered and return to the palace..

but then even in the palace, wook and so also did plead with the king.. while the remaining princes worrying too..

their lack of power could be the result of their "acceptance" or resigning to fact and we had see for ourself so many time they got their hands tied just because king/someone said this and that.. maybe he did need some "push".. but he's definitely concern with Soo and not like 9th prince for eg, worrying only about the punishment or after-effect for doing it as his priority..

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I did find it jarring when he said those things, though I don't think he realized his own feelings yet. But one thing he always seems to do is allow her some agency. I always think of him when he followed behind her while she carried the heavy picnic basket, reaching out his hand unnoticed in case she stumbled, ready to take over if she can't do it herself, but not interfering if she can.

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Yeah So always has a curiosity about what Su will do next. He can't quite predict her. He tries to protect her and keep her out of harms way at the expense of his own safety. I mean the agency thing is SO true.

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I can't agree more about So always allowing her some agency. What I love from the way he treats her is he allows her to grow. He gives her advice and insight, but he never interferes with her decision. He never gives him unrealistic expectation; life is hard and he tells her the truth in order for her to prepare and find her own way to face the obstacles. Meanwhile he always watches over her and is ready to catch her whenever she falls.

So has always been consistent and so far I can understand him completely except for one part: his referral to Soo as 'my person'. I always think of that as a kind of possessive or romantic feeling he had towards Soo, but as @MLSHfanfan and @Barbrey said, it's weird that he would allow his 'possession' or his 'love' to be owned by others. I believe that So's version of 'my person' probably has different meaning other than possession or romance. But I still haven't found the right term yet.

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I agree with all three of you! I always think of when he stood by her in the rain: he didn't interfere or try to convince her to stop, he accepted what she was trying to do, that it was important/necessary to her, and stood next to her in silent support.

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anyone know the song used when the king remember court lady oh in his deathbed?? Its a sad string instrumential music..please kindly tell me I really like that song

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That totally sucks.

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I hate SBS right now....

*CRY*

And what is really annoying is that they won't show episodes 14/15 tomorrow, JUST 14. So we have to wait another WEEK to see 15 (which is probably the episode with the pretty boat....and the bedroom scene, rawr).

*WAIL*

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There's a bedroom scene??? For real???

SBS is killing the drama and ratings with so few So-Su romance scenes -- that's the reason we're watching the drama but there is so little of it!!!!

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If you go to Lee Joon Gi's IG account, he posted a photo where he's lying in bed and you can see IU in the background with what appears to be the updo a woman has after she is married.

#suchatease

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I saw a screenshot of SBS schedule on IG, there it showed that eps 14 will be aired on 11 Oct at 1.10 am and eps 15 at ??.40pm. LIKE SERIOUSLY, 1.10AM?? Who would watch a drama at that hour??

If that's a true schedule, I will be so mad at SBS. This drama is already struggling on the rating even on normal time slot, and they decide to air it on 1.10am? either they lack of common sense or they just don't care about this drama.

Really need official confirmation from SBS now huhu

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????

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Does anyone else think LJK's voice is dreamy? That man's voice keeps ringing in my ears ...

If you do please show love and vote for him :

http://www.moolmang.com/sub/rank-view/?id=115&pop_cate=&pop_name=&sp_cate=&sp_name=&act=star

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Please show love and vote for LJK :

http://www.hallyuvote.com/

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There IS a GOD!

The baseball game ended, and episode 14 should be airing tonight as scheduled!

YEEEESSS!

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OMG DRAMA GODS IT'S FINALL AIRING

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YESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Yahoo!!!
that's good news then..?

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