I agree. I don't think Jae Hee has a sincere bone in her body. All her actions point to her wanting to take everything away from Eun Ki, and her not wanting Maru to "use" Eun Ki really meant she did not want Eun Ki to have Maru. If she really cared for Maru at all, she would not have jumped in the water to desperately bring him back. I think she has a personality disorder from being abused as a child.

Actually, i'd have to agree with you ladida.
I didn't think Jae-hee was being protective of Eun-Gi in that moment.
I agreed with everything you said about how eliminating eun-gi from his life would be one less tool that maru can use against jae-hee.
Plus, being the kind of manipulating control freak, i'd imagine she doesn't want anyone sharing maru, the "warmest place in the world" even though she's willing to throw him to the wolves just to get what she wants.
Someone like that warrants no protective instinct over those close to her, let alone Eun-gi. Maybe her son is an exception.
When it comes down to it, i think her "protective act" is all part of her master plan to appear more human all the while knowing she is benefiting from it. Plus, if she puts eun-gi at a level much lower than theirs, then she's able to reserve the last bit of their"special" relationship since she's practically isolating eun-gi from their level. This way, maru won't have the eyes for anyone but Jae-hee.

I'm mostly with ladida and ilikemangos on this one.

I personally think Jae Hee was playing Maru like a fiddle when she mentioned Eun Gi's well being. Not realizing how significantly she's broken Maru & how far gone he is, JH tried to appeal to his sense of guilt in order to distance Maru from the Seo family and protect her position. Not to mention the side-bonus of eliminating competition for ownership of Maru's heart (because I don't think Jae Hee has any interest in actually being with Maru).

That said, I honestly don't think it matters whether Jae Hee was being sincere or not. Because regardless of what she's *feeling*, Jae Hee has proven time and time again that she will act in her own self interest, period. For all I know, she was and is concerned for Eun Gi's well-being. I'm sure she was devastated at sending Maru to jail for a crime she committed. She very well may still be in love with Maru. But at the end of the day, she is able to completely disassociate her emotions from her actions, which makes her both terrifying and a masterful tactician.

Her blind spot, I think, is that she fails to account for the fact that other people do not operate as she does. Maru, for example, is letting his emotions towards Jae Hee basically steer his life off a cliff, in spite of all rationality. In fact, they're basically foils of each other in terms of how they approach life. This is why she was so flabbergasted that Maru wouldn't just accept her bribe and go off and make a life for himself. Because in her world, no emotion would justify making an irrational decision to destroy one's life in the pursuit of something as tenuous as "love."

@rearwindow: "That said, I honestly don’t think it matters whether Jae Hee was being sincere or not. Because regardless of what she’s *feeling*, Jae Hee has proven time and time again that she will act in her own self interest, period."

Ooh, this is such a good sum-up of Jea-hee, rearwindow! She feels what she feels, but she can get over it to protect her position or advance. Which is what makes her so terrifying and interesting.

"That Jea-hee was trying to symbolically kill Eun-gi’s mother — and knew she was doing it — drove that home for me.)

@Betsy Hp, which episode did we see or hear about JH doing this?

Her mother left four or five years ago and that would make a now 30 EG around 25 back then. And, I get that ppl feel sorry for the character, but I do not at this point.

@ Betsy Hp

When I say "matters of the heart", I'm talking about the Big "L" - Love.

What you're talking about is revenge and survival which is based on hate and fear respectively. To Jae-hee, Eun-ki is an obstacle - nothing personal. If it were just Jae-hee vs Eun-ki, Eun-ki would use her hatred for Jae-hee drive her to survive. But Maru is using her heart which is basically just going to break her on an emotional and psychological level considering how much she's already fallen for him. In her own words, she's crazily in love with him.

Not only that, but we've never seen Jae-hee directly attack Eun-ki as mskololia said. There has been no concrete evidence, just speculation on our part based on Eun-ki's perspective - what she thinks is the truth. And the same goes for Maru - we can only speculate based on what he thinks is the truth.

That's why I don't understand why there's so much hatred towards Jae-hee. There's a dark and twisted world that only Jae-hee knows about which hasn't been revealed to us yet (i.e. the man she killed in self defense, the Chairman, why Eun-ki's mom left, etc.).

@mskololia: I'm pretty sure that what Betsy Hp meant by Jae Hee's "symbolically killing" Eun Gi's mother was that Jae Hee basically singlehandedly sold off the Japan property--which was the last connection Eun Gi & the Chairman had to Eun Gi's mom, aside from the bedraggled barbie doll. Interestingly, during the business deal, Jae Hee insisted on Eun Gi calling her "mother," which drove the stake a little further through her heart.

Betsy Hp, correct me if I'm wrong with this interpretation of your comment.

@rearwindow It wasn't JH's fault that the chairman wanted to sell that place. She was brought in after they discussed it at the meeting where every member of the board apart from EG decided to raise money by selling it. So how is it JH's fault? Shouldn't it be the chairman's fault?

@ rearwindow / Betsy Hp

Yeah, that's my take on what Betsy Hp meant as well. But JH's motivation wasn't to attack EK; Basically, JH doesn't have a personally vendetta against her. It's just an unfortunate and tragic twist of fate that THAT resort happens to be strongly tied to EK's mother. It could've been any other person, not EK, and the result would've been the same. Whoever is in EK's position will be caught in the crossfire. Yeah, fate's a bitch. Now, if JH were taking revenge on EK for no reason (meaning EK didn't do anything to JH first), then it would be a TOTALLY different story; JH would be a hateful person.

The writer isn't writing JH's character to be THE villain and EK's character to be THE heroine. So at face value, it seems JH is all evil, but she's not. They are both the perfect foil to each other's characters: JH = outwardly vulnerable, inwardly strong; EK = outwardly strong, inwardly vulnerable. It's so DAEBAK!

@Shiku & news: I totally agree with you that the Chairman is at fault, too. But it's very significant IMO that Lawyer Ahn is the one who suggested selling off that specific property, no? Given that Lawyer Ahn is basically in the pocket of Jae Hee, I just assumed that she was the one behind that move. Especially since, regardless of who ultimately made the decision to sell off the property, she certainly took advantage of Eun Gi's emotional connection to the property in order to assert her power over EG.

News, I don't really see any moral distinction between Jae Hee having a personal vendetta against Eun Gi and Jae Hee systematically pushing her out of the family and the company, which is absolutely what I believe her to be doing. Now, do I think that pushing Eun Gi out of the family is her only goal? No. Do her ends justify her means? I don't know, since the only information we've been given to justify Jae Hee's behavior is her ambition and her desire to have her son inherit the company. Given what we've seen of her history with Maru, I do believe there's gotta be more to her story and will be interested in unraveling that mystery in the episodes to come.

Anyway, more than enough blame to go around, I'd say. :)

News, I love what you say about there being no "one" villain in this show. So far, the Chairman is the closest thing to a Big Bad that we've got. Then again, we know the least about him, which is probably why it's so easy to hate him. I love that all of the characters have or are hinted at having such depth, even the ones we want to strangle (and I have, at various points, wanted to strangle every lead on the show). Who knows where the Chairman's trust issues came from, for example, or what actually went down with Eun Gi's mom. Add to that the fact that so much is shrouded in mystery, and it's even harder to judge.

I don't know that Jae Hee is any better or worse than Maru (or what such value judgments would even accomplish), but I DO know that Eun Gi is basically the only character on the show right now that I unequivocally love (aside from Joon Ha, I suppose, but he's got such a small role that I don't really count him). Because I am rooting for her so much, I tend to hate Jae Hee when she is antagonizing Eun Gi, and now that Maru has gotten under her skin, I am even more leery of him. That's not to say that I don't sympathize with those two (and I actually sympathize more with Jae Hee than with Maru as things stand now), just that the sense of justice is tipped so far away from Eun Gi's favor right now, that as a viewer I hate everything that brings her hardship, haha.

Wow! Discussion got away from me -- this is awesome! :D

So, the symbolic killing of Eun-gi's mother: Yes, I'm talking about the selling off of the resort. Which Jea-hee underlines her knowledge of by being the one to state that every tree and every room in the resort was hand-picked/designed by Eun-gi's mom. She knew what she was doing. And it was a direct attack -- destroying something Eun-gi had vowed to protect for personal and emotional reasons. Then, as Rearwindow pointed out, Jea-hee twisted the knife by overtly taking over the mother-role.

I do agree with News that Jea-hee isn't doing this for personal reasons. I mean, she wants Eun-gi out of her way (which apparently means destroyed because Eun-gi isn't one to quietly get) and she's using all means at hand to do so, but it's only because Eun-gi stands between her and control of the company.

But it's very personal for Eun-gi. This isn't just a competition for a company. It's Eun-gi's family Jea-hee is taking from her -- the love of her father, the love of her mother, her role as daughter. Which is why Eun-gi is in such a vulnerable emotional state -- screaming and collapsing on the floor in a business meeting and whatnot.

Maru is doing the exact same thing as Jea-hee in that for him it's not personal. Eun-gi is a tool, not someone he actively wants to harm. In fact, unlike Jea-hee, Maru gains nothing from Eun-gi's destruction -- it would be collateral damage. Which... doesn't give him a get-out-of-jail-free card in my opinion. He's still being cold.

But again, Eun-gi is the one getting emotionally hit. Which is worse? Disowned or dumped? It's close enough (especially since it looks like one will follow the other) that I'm not sure it's measurable. At the moment it's a war Jea-hee and Maru are fighting and Eun-gi is bearing the brunt.

And Shiku is right, the chairman is screwing up royally. That his daughter is in so much pain is basically his fault (and it's her pain that's opened her up for Maru's influence). Basically, he's a piss poor dad and that's part of the reason Eun-gi's life is hell at the moment. (He did redeem himself slightly, ever, ever so slightly when he asked the cute lawyer to stay by her side no matter what.)

@Betsy and rearwindow, regarding Jae Hee taking on a mother position with Eun Ki: remember that conversation we were all having last week about the women on this show and the various ways they are infantilized? Reading over all these comments I realized that it's continuing this week with these two. When Jae Hee calls herself Eun Ki's mom she does so in a commandeering manner. She slaps her, tells her to get in line, then tries to destroy her character by telling people that she's mentally unstable (which is one of the worst things you can say about someone; a ~crazy~ person is immediately delegitimized and dismissed; a great way to take power away from someone is to imply they're crazy). Jae Hee is infantilizing Eun Ki. But Eun Ki is 30 years old; she's a grown ass woman! Jae Hee is only 5 years her senior! And it's a role that the chairman is encouraging her in, too, which is so confusing because he was the one who threw out Eun Ki's dolls in an attempt to have her grow up more quickly to be a better Taesan employee.

@ rearwindow & Betsy HP

Whoa, this conversation is outta control! :-D At the end of the day, it's not important whether we agree or disagree, but for dialogue purposes, isn't it fun to disagree? ;-) It also makes Wed and Thur come faster! Ppalli wa juseyo!

I initially jumped into this conversation, playing the devil's advocate, because of all the hate being dumped on JH, but along the way, there are some interesting points that have been brought up.

So far I definitely find JH's character to be the most compelling, but that in no way makes me think her actions are forgivable or justifiable. But she isn't the only one who is doing the antagonizing. In fact, if my memory serves me right and correct me if I'm wrong, in every scene with JH and EK, it's always EK who antagonizes JH first. Yes, from EK's perspective, it's very personal (how can it not be?). She has every right to act the way she does, as anyone would, when a stepmother takes the place of a birth mother, but she's basing everything on face value and personal feelings, not actual truths. Did her mother leave BEFORE or AFTER the Chairman and JH got together? As I recall, the Chairman cryptically said her mother ran away b/c she couldn't handle "it". So from the get go, she already hates JH which is a normal human action, but pretty narrow-minded to me. Why blame everything on JH and never on her dad (the Chairman)?

Which is also the case with the resort. It definitely wasn't JH's idea; the Chairman and Lawyer Ahn discussed it first. And because of this, rearwindow and Betsy Hp, both of you brought up a really good point: Is there a moral distinction whether someone has a personal vendetta against someone or not if the result is the same? Which is worse and is it measurable? This is one of those million dollar questions - lots of personal opinions but never a 'right' or 'wrong' answer. From what I've observed, JH is an opportunist, not a mastermind. To be fair, she's as much of a victim as EK and MR are. In this case, analogically speaking, JH should be charged for manslaughter, not murder. I guess, my personal opinion is that manslaughter is the lesser of two evils.

But rearwindow, you've made me understand your point of view (and why many other people are loving EK and therefore 'hating' JH) in your last paragraph. It doesn't matter whether I agree or disagree, which is completely beside the point, but now I totally get where you're coming from.

@ladida: Brilliant insights, as always! Such an interesting exploration of femininity in this show. Also, I didn't realize that Eun Gi is meant to be 30! And Jae Hee/Maru are supposed to be 35?! Is there some sort of magical fountain of youth that Korea's hiding from the rest of the world?

@news: Thanks for engaging! I love a challenging dialogue, which is why I became so obsessed with the Nice Guy threads so quickly. There's so much to debate, explore, theorize, and so many smart people with which to do all of the above :). I agree that Eun Gi has had a HUGE chip on her shoulder w/r/t Jae Hee since we first saw her. At first, I thought it was over the top, but the more we're learning about Jae Hee, the less I'm certain of that. Who knows how many of Jae Hee's actions towards Eun Gi reflect her playing into the role that Eun Gi has created for her, and how much of it is Eun Gi accurately assessing Jae Hee's hidden agenda.

All that said, I think Eun Gi talks a big game but is far less underhanded than Jae Hee. Which brings up another question: Is it worse to openly antagonize someone, or to treat someone decently on the surface but scheme to bring them to ruin? And how much do words matter/how much power do words have? My instinct is to say that actions are far, far worse than words, but look at the power that the Chairman's words hold over Eun Gi. And Maru's, for that matter.

Interesting stuff!

@ladida: Are you talking about a discussion in Ep 4 comments? Because I totally missed that and would love to go back for a look-see. I agree Jea-hee totally used her "mother" role to present Eun-gi as a child. Right from the moment Eun-gi entered and she asked the Rollings guy if he knew any men she could introduce Eun-gi to. It was a clever way of delegitimizing Eun-gi as a business-person.

And yes, it was Eun-gi's father who got that ball rolling after that lunch with Maru. (I don't remember if he was similarly dismissive of her during that meeting when he cut her cheek. Maybe that's where it began? When she took the business in a direction he didn't like?)

@news and rearwindow: I've been enjoying the discussion a lot, too! :) I totally agree, news, that Jea-hee isn't a mastermind. At least, not from what I've seen. It's more like she's made a series of choices, each decision made in the moment and made, I think with a feeling of necessity. Which is why she doesn't fit easily into the "villain" mode. In many ways it really has been just about survival for her.

But, as rearwindow said so well, Eun-gi is such a compelling character (for those who find her such, anyway) that we side with her in any conflict.

But! (Again. ;) ) I could see Jea-hee feeling like Eun-gi wouldn't let her and her son be if Eun-gi gained enough control. Eun-gi came out with open aggression against Jea-hee and her son in the first scene with all of them. And while I can see why Eun-gi would behave that way, and can even see a certain honor in being that honest, I can also see where Jea-hee would feel like her survival (and her son's) depended on Jea-hee fully crushing Eun-gi.

And it's that messy conflict that has me so addicted to the show. (And I haven't even brought up Maru who leaves me epically confused by acting incredibly douchy while being played by SJK. ;) )

@Betsy Hp: I think the specific discussion ladida is referring to happened in the episode 3 recap, starting with comment 35.2.1.2. We do have an (many?) epic discussion(s) in episode 4, though. We need to compile these comments into a book or something, LOL.

@ rearwindow

Well, if you word the first question that way, the answer is obvious. I prefer, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

I don't like or dislike EK, but I find her annoying: she's naive and her view of the world is overly simplistic; she acts condescending towards others when she lacks (real life) experiences; she's judgmental when she needs to grow up and be more perceptive; she's short-sighted and attacks without knowing who her real enemy is. I think these are all valid reasons why the Chairman is wary to name her Taesan's successor. Sure, people can throw her a pity party and love her like the angel she isn't, but her tantrums are off-putting and as far as I'm concerned, she's just digging her own grave.

Again, I firmly stand behind JH being an opportunist. When life throws her lemons, she catches them and makes lemonade. Them survival skills aren't there for no reason; she came from the slums. So far, in every situation that she's been called a 'bitch', she had always acted upon decisions made for her first by someone else; she was never the instigator (i.e. MR going to jail for her manslaughter, EK trapping her in her own lie, overhearing the Chairman talk about Taesan's successor, the Chairman and Lawyer Ahn choosing her to close the resort deal, Lawyer Ahn taking the blame for not telling JH to stop the signing). She can be ruthless as a means to survive and win, but from my perspective, not sadistic. In that kind of business setting, it's impossible to succeed without having some kind of collateral damage; it's basically a given. Also, with EK continuously antagonizing and provoking JH (and son) from episode 1, why should JH even consider EK's feelings at all when making business dealings? Not to mention that they've each had their moment of acting underhandedly. EK put a spy on JH before announcing that she was going to take revenge on her. So, for all the fist pump that was going on during that scene, if she's going to announce it, announce it at the very beginning, not after she had already secretly spied on JH. After the fact, that just doesn't count anymore. Not to mention, all this happened before the resort dealing. And all of this happened way after EK first saw her father putting his arms around JH, not b/c of an affair, but b/c she just killed someone.

I'd say it's a matter of opinion and perspective when it comes to defining when JH is being sincere or not. I see it when she's being sincere, but I don't hold the popular opinion so not everyone's going think similarly or agree. But just b/c EK is always saying JH's two-faced, doesn't make it the truth. How can I believe EK with all the aforementioned criticism I have of her character?

@rearwindow: Thanks for the info! I actually went back and read through the ep 4 comments before seeing your reply, so I was able to bone up on the discussions in both eps. Which are awesome -- esp. with the links to yet more discussions! A book would be lovely. ;) (Actually, it's a great way to handle the long wait between eps.)

I... am taking a wait and see on the amnesia storyline. :) I mean, I see plenty for the story to do without it. But if it makes Eun-gi vulnerable enough that Maru starts to feel protective, that adds something to his storyline. Maybe a redemption? (I would love, love, love his arc to include a redemption.)