Re: She's on duty

No electricity this afternoon meant that the only form of entertainment was a dvd on the laptop. The only one which we hadn't seen and both were willing to watch was She's on duty with KSA and GY.

Could someone please clarify to me as to what GY's character, KNY, was in the end? Was he working for the FBI or something more higher up than KSA's character?

I know I bought this dvd because of GY (and also KSA) but he didn't really say much in this movie for me to really appreciate his acting. Nor were there any half naked shots of him (ok, there was one!) to admire ;)

@ mookie, djes, bpsanda

Ha ha, it appears collectively - everyone's least favorite Tiger is Kent. Poor Kent, but then again, if he is indeed (a) reason for Barbara's suicide, we'll never know, but boy did he get blamed for the rest of his career.

Anyways, as a game of musical chairs, I always secretly wanted Yang Kang to get with Huang Rong in LoCH - both gorgeous, smart, plus, I sensed that Michael and Barbara would make a great pairing. Then I watched Michael and Barbara pair up in the Chor Leu Heung - the Legendary Bat Chronicles, and was not I disappointed. Barbara had that spark with all her leading men. Too bad she was gone before it was Tony or Andy's turn to star with her.

@ djes, yes Adam did play the original Zhang Wu-zyi from Dragon Sabre, Heavenly Sword, with Zhao Ya-zhi as Zhao min. I don't know ANYONE who has seen hat version, from the late 70s. Its neigh impossible to find. My first version of Dragon Sabre (the final concluding chapter of the Condor Trilogy), was the Tony Leung version in 85, and each subsequent version confirms the same feeling I have about that story - which is, it's not a very endearing story to me. Even Tony couldn't make ZWZ anything more than a lame version of Guo Jing (all the doofoid, none of the bumpkin charm). And the less we discuss the love triangle in that story the better - it was a geunine love triangle to be sure, but when the viewer actively HATES both woman, well, I'd rather ZWZ move back to the island and die a lonely man.

@ mookie

Yes, Xiaolungnu seemed completed retarded once she got out of the Tomb (like LC gave her a lobotomy), but ultimately, she as a character is an absolute Cipher. She has no purpose other than as the great love interest of the all-awesome Yang Guo. 16 years before, 16 years after - it doesn't matter, she's still as beautiful, serene, and in love with YG as ever. She does not change or grow, so in the end, she is but an embodiment of Louis Cha's perfect woman, the one he created for man to dream about before they fall asleep.

But nonetheless, Yang Guo is also one of my fave characters, despite my not liking RoCH as a story, because he is the male version of Huang Rong. And I absolutely *love* with HR, so how could I not be madly *in love* with her male counterpart, Yang Guo. And LC jacked HR's character in RoCH for plot purposes, and I can accept that, but like you, it doesn't have to mean I have to like it. It was like in RoCH, HR was too smart for her own good, too prone to overthink and overanalyze everything, until the point when she could not believe that YG was NOT like his father, when all signs pointed that way.

@ mookie, is it possible, is it actually possible to LIKE Mu Nianci as a character, and/or ship the Yang Kang/Mu Nianci pairing? I'm intrigued, really, the LoCH 08 version Mu Nianci is the prettiest one yet, but I've always chalked it up to no sane actress would want to play this godawful character.

Cool beans, hey, revisionist is fine with me if done right, and if I'm in the right mood for it. :-)

@ kb

Hey, welcome to team Lisa Hayes. Love your friend's saying, too pithy.

Just finished Ep 2 of Proposal Daisukunen (HGD was next on my list, but I got sidetracked on a Yamapi tangent...). I estimate that of the 42 minutes of each episode, Yamapi spends at least 17-18 minutes running hither and thither. And in Buzzer Beat he did quite a bit of running, too. Is he supposed to be a good runner or something? Am I missing some in-joke here? I mean, he's really spending a lot of time running. A LOT of time. He's a good runner and everything... but there's a LOT OF RUNNING.

General question: does anyone have any recommendations of films set in Seoul or Tokyo which really feature the urban landscape? ie that give you a good sense of the landscape or which convey a particular feel of or perspective on the city? Thanks in advance.

reluctantbutaddicted 203

check out 'lost in translation.' excellent flick set in tokyo.

@ 204 kb:

Thanks for that recommendation... it does give a good sense of the foreigner's experience of the city. You remind me to put it on my list of films by foreign filmmakers in Asian cities. I should have clarified that I'm trying to find films by Japanese or Korean filmmakers set in Tokyo or Seoul, respectively, which express something about those cities. How foreign directors approach those or other cities is a whole topic in itself, and also interesting.

@201 crzycpl

Gong Yoo was the right-hand man of the gangster whose daughter he was protecting. ;) In the end, he was just hiding from police I think...

@203 reluctantbutaddicted

How about Densha Otoko? I've only seen the drama, so I don't know about the film, but there are a lot of scenes in trains and on top of buildings in Akihabara.

@ Samsooki

Just 포기해...you've already got 2 guys, kb and my brother (who was a teenager at the time he watched Robotech), against you.
포기해!
Come on...you've got to teach Ji Hoonie that life isn't about always winning. It's how you handle defeat and disappoint that really shows what kind of man you've become. :P

Re: texts - take your time. I'm in no hurry. I haven't even had a chance to open my history and idiom books yet.

samsooki 208

you bring up an interesting point with your scenario, and i'm wondering if there is a double standard going on here.

for instance, in a typical korean drama with gender role reversal, lisa hayes could represent the 'nice guy' and minmei could represent the 'bad boy.' i can think of 2 dramas off the top of my head that follows this mold, 'autumn fairy tale' with SSH (nice guy) and WB (bad boy), and 'beautiful days' with RSW (nice guy) and LBH (bad boy).

if i remember correctly, many female drama watchers (if they had to choose nice guy vs bad boy) chose WB and (to my surprise) LBH, the ultimate bad boy.

hjkomo, ockoala, and others who commented on the lisa hayes vs minmei debate: if you've seen 'autumn fairy tale' and/or 'beautiful days,' which guy would you choose?

@ kb

I've seen both dramas - and aside from your characterization of Minmei vs. Lisa - I always choose the bad boy (except for BSB, then no way, I'm choosing oppa).

I loved WB in AIMH and Lee Byun-hyun in Beautiful Days (in fact, I watched BD a few months ago and was really impressed by the drama and LBH and CJW).

I think your characterization of Lisa as the good guy and Minmei as the bad boy may be theoretically plausible, but really, it doesn't hold true. It is because their is a gender disparity, so that the bad boys we see in dramas are wounded souls who are in fact a good guy with a bad upbringing. Minmei is not Lisa Hayes in hiding, and I don't ever see her becoming Lisa, as the war has gone one for many years, and still at the end of the series, she's as self-absorbed, ignorant and flighty as ever. Time and the love of Rick does not recitfy her youthful shortcomings, as it does with many bad boys in dramas.

Minmei vs. Lisa is the first immature girlfriend v.s the mature soulmate.

My fave novel by Louis Cha (which mookie et. al. and I have been discussing), contain this very love triangle (the young immature girl he grows up with and loves and adores, and his soulmate, best friend confidante that he meets later in life) - and guess which girl the hero ends up with? Yeah, its inevitable. However, LC's central conceit in that novel is that the hero, regardless of his first love's shortcomings, genuinely loves her. And some critics have argued that the hero really shouldn't end up with his soulmate as its clear he has not forgotten or stopped loving his first love. And that LC wrote the ending to appease some readers who wanted his hero to have a happily ever after, even if it sometimes seem contrary to the love story he had constructed.

I think Rick really did move on from Minmei by the end of the series, and if he didn't, well, then, he doesn't deserve Lisa.

207 robotmatsuri : thanks, I followed up and found it on Yesasia so will order the VCD. Sounds like the kind of thing I am after. Have you seen Cafe Lumiere? It had some beautiful shots of trains passing through the city, I remember particularly a few long overhead shots, rather mesmerizing. I found it very very slow as a film, deathly slow (for me), but beautifully shot.

@213 reluctantbutaddicted

Have you previewed it on YT or other streaming sites? I'd feel bad if you spent money and it wasn't what you were looking for... heh.

"I think your characterization of Lisa as the good guy and Minmei as the bad boy may be theoretically plausible, but really, it doesn’t hold true."

It kinda does, but not directly. Young/stupid men have a weakness for the "innocent" woman who will never change. Young/stupid women have a weakness for the damaged guy (i.e. the bad boy) whom they can change/save. Also, rom-coms are vicarious experiences, where (young) female viewers puts themselves in the female role. This is why fangirls get extremely catty with the female rival, and why certain actresses get extremely loyal fanbases if they get the "right role."

EXTREMELY damaging in actual relationships, but hey it makes for great shows. :D

Rick loves Lisa, will grow old with Lisa's kids, and rock more Centradi throughout the universe. But Minmei will always be the brightest star in his galaxy and will represent a fond aspect of his youth that as he approaches middle age, he will look ever more fondly and privately. It's not love, but it's still powerful.

@146 bspanda

Just got home from Sydney.

Yes, it's that circular building diagonally across from there with the food court. As for Malaysian(meaning Laksa) my multi-national colleagues(all Asian countries including Japanese, Korean, Thai, Phillipino, Chinese, Indian, Cambodian, Sri Lankan and on and on) all sort of agree that Laksa place at the food court in Sussex building on 2nd? (your 1st?) floor. Do you have a better recommendation? I'd love to hear about it! We are always looking for somewhere new/reasonable/good to eat out. Thank you.

So all the Chinese drama talks are going on...

@203 reluctantbutaddicted

So, what about "Real clothes"? It's set in Tokyo and it shows certain trendy areas within Metropolitan Tokyo area.

"Have you seen Cafe Lumiere? It had some beautiful shots of trains passing through the city, I remember particularly a few long overhead shots, rather mesmerizing"

Ehhh . . . Cafe Lumiere doesn't work that great as a travelogue of Tokyo. The train motif is one Hsiao Hsieng loves to use, and it's one that also pays homage to Japanese filmmaker Ozu, who frequently shot trains. There's some shots here and there, but nothing particularly immersible or touristy-y about the film.

I'd try out Lee Jung Ki/Aoi Miyazaki's film Virgin Snow. In that one, LJK is an exchange student checking out Tokyo and it's mostly light and frothy fun.

214 robotmatsuri : I looked at the first part on YT, and it looked fun, so I'm willing to risk the $6 on a VCD. I'm pretty adventurous up to $10. More than $10 and I have to pretty sure I'm going to like it...

I haven't been able to find Real Clothes, but I'll keep looking.

I'm also trying to find a 1954 Korean movie titled Hand of Destiny or Hand of Fate. Highly rated as an Asian film noir. If anyone has any leads on where to find this, I'd be glad of the tip.

@213 reluctantbutaddicted

Whoops, If you liked "Cafe Lumiere". don't know if you'll like Real clothes. It's a drama series not a movie. It was interesting enough drama reflecting what's going on fashion wise or notions on fashion-wise in urban society there, which doesn't exactly reflect any other part of the country in a sense just like NYC is not like the rest of USA. (Somewhat unreal to me in many ways as fashion isn't exactly my main focus in my life even though I'm a just little bit in it in terms of what I create and where they end up being at).

218 reluctantbutaddicted

http://www.iidrama.com/Japanese_drama/Real_Clothes-2533-1.html

@ belleza No, you are right, Cafe Lumiere doesn't work so well in the context I want, though it does convey a certain feel for/of the city. But do I put that under "foreign" perspectives, is the question I couldn't resolve, since Hou Hsiao-Hsien is Taiwanese.

And no, celestialorigin, I am not a fan of Cafe Lumiere, but I did like the train shots. I'm not a fan of the paralyzed snail's pace Asian style of arthouse, though it is beautiful.

Myself, I like to laugh. But I am using the films in a class and I want to discuss the representation of Asian cities in film (by Asian directors, rather than addressing how foreigners represent Asia, at this point). I know Singapore and Hong Kong cinema fairly well (passably well, I guess, is more accurate), and I have other films from here and there, but I realize that for Seoul and Tokyo I don't have many. I'm thinking about using Tokyo Story to talk about modern Tokyo and the clash of modernity and tradition in the city (rural parents come to visit their kids in 1950s Tokyo). I'm looking for films on other Asian cities, too, but I thought this group likely knows Seoul and Tokyo best, though I don't know why I thought that, I should remember that people here come up with all kinds of info and have all kinds of expertise. Anyway, any film recommendations will be helpful... I will happily track them down. And more generally, class aside, I like films which are very thoroughly set in place, particularly urban place. One of things I liked most on first starting to watch K-dramas was how quickly they gave me a feel for 'everyday life' in Seoul (the look of sidewalks, where couples go on dates, the saunas, the outdoor cafes and soju stands, the different neighbourhoods of the city, the types of housing, etc). When I then went to Seoul, I 'recognized' it, gleefully, so that just being there felt 'familiar'.

217 belleza , 218 reluctantbutaddicted

Oh, I saw that somewhere... Here it is. Lee Jung Ki was adorable!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8ysks_vsnow1_sport

And I'm getting ready for leaving for Japan once again for 10 days this time (Feb. for 2&1/2weeks, March for 2&1/2 weeks. May for 2&1/2 weeks and July for 3 weeks! This is the year of expanding!) I'm just hoping I'll not over eat over there.

@ celestialorigin : nice! You can eat, and then sweat it off in the onsen! I was just watching a public bath scene today in Proposal Daisakunen with Yamapi having a little sweat in the baths. Nice.

That's a lot of travelling. Mmm, and a lot of sushi. I went to Japan for the first time in 2000, and stumbled across a little restaurant in a station which had a double conveyor belt--sushi on the bottom, dim sum on the top. Heaven. As I recall, the belts went in opposite directions, but I may have made that bit up. I didn't write down where it was though, and when I went back a couple of years later I couldn't find it. And I didn't know if I didn't go to the right place or if it had closed. But that was, undoubtedly, for me, the pinnacle of conveyor-belt eating (of which I was already a fan). Now, I think, I would want a third conveyor-belt with Korean side-dishes, too.

@ reluctantbutaddicted

how bout Tokyo Tower w/ O. Joe?

@ ockoala, pls wait for me to get home, I need to rant on NianChi@RoCH08

ockoala 212

i see your point, but if i remember correctly, WB in one instance physically threatens SHG. can you still call WB a good guy and attribute his action to a bad upbringing? at what point do we hold him responsible for his actions and just call him the bad boy that he is?

as for 'beautiful days,' i think the way i feel about LBH's character is similar to how you and hjkomo feel about minmei. i would pound my head on the wall every time CJW went back to LBH. i saw this without the benefit of subtitles, and so i think i missed out on the 'good guy' side of LBH that you mentioned, and i'm assuming there is a good side because i don't want to believe that all the fangirls who sided with LBH in this drama would fall for a manipulative, cunning, and violent mental case (who is also good-looking, rich, and muscular).

223 reluctantbutaddicted

Oh Onsen! If I do well financially there. I'll treat myself to that. I'm not sure about being buck naked with all others, lol! Come to think of it till I was 6, we didn't have a bathroom, so we went to pubic bath house for bathing and it wasn't everyday! even during summer...

224 mookie

Is this a movie version? I should check it out. or have I seen it?

Happy new year dear JB and fellow OT-ers...
i was visiting my friend on new year and only had the time to properly say happy new year now (bowing my head and apologizing)...

wow, OT never seemed to be boring, now we have a (super) lengthy discussion about (old) wuxia (or LC novels) drama, and from the list, surprisingly i had watched almost all (the older version) except DGnSD and Deadly Secret. I watched these when i was in elementary school, and i was so fascinated with the whole kung fu thingy... in my earlier years, i grew up with watching Andy Lau, Tony Leung, LoCH people (the ones i remember the most were Chow Bak Tong, and the beggar king), Jet Li, Jackie Chan, etc, rather than disney movies... it's because my father love wuxia novels rather than american movies, so i only watched all the disney movies if my local TV showed it, LOL...

i recently saw Mulan with Vicky Zhao, the disney Mulan is so close to my heart, which this version didn't. i want to know what everybody else think about it. has anyone seen it yet??

@191 Belleza,
apparently after Beatles, the little dude was showing of his MJ dance skills, although i have to admit i find the other boy much more a noona killer with his 네...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bu2_9TbUto

Happy new year everyone!

Just finished Shining Inheritance epside 19 and I really, really need to vent. I really, really want to reach my hands into the computer monitor, grab a hold of the evil stepmother, and shake her till the cows come home. *shake head*

This is why I love kdramas, and why I hate it. Why can't I stop torturing myself? But who am I kidding, I love it. But I hate it. But I love it. ARGH I'm going crazy!

@ kb

LBH in Beautiful Days - I call it "Sometimes you just need a serving of the archtypal K-drama Alpha Male to sate your inner cinderalla/mother teresa/florence nightingale fantasies."

I know LBH's Lee Min-chul wasn't good for a woman's soul - RSY was THE perfect male lead and would be boyfriend, but everything he did annoyed me - but damn it if I wasn't madly rooting for him and CJW. And CJW's absolute love for him was indeed beautiful, only time I've like a CJW character and performance (not counting ASL, where she played herself).

I can't explain it rationally - I just personally love LBH and his character in BD, who was indeed "manipulative, cunning, and violent mental case (who is also good-looking, rich, and muscular)."

Emphasis for me on the muscular. :-P Just kidding, or not...Drool Team unite!

@ bbm

Seriously, another person who experienced the TVB classic wuxia dramas in the 80s? Yay, I also loved ALL the secondary characters in those dramas, they were all played by the uber-elder statesman of the TVB family, and each elevated the ancillary roles into portrayals that I remember to this day.

Including: LoCH's Five Greats - The Eastern Eccentric (HR's daddy and my personal fave), The Western Poison, the Southern Emperor, and the Northern Begger (also a classic), and the Central Divine.

Anyways, just curious, if I mentioned whether anyone read the original V.C. Andrews books and what you thought about them - would anyone admit it and care to discuss? Sometimes, when one is a kid, the world had no internet, and school was a bunch of kids who dared not share their secret passions (dramas, Robotech, mangas, etc.), I've had conversations in OT I've been waiting to discuss for over 25 years. It's been cathartic.

@ mookie, I'm all ears and with anticipation. BTW, you do know that in the original LoCH novel, Mu Nianci was NOT Yang Guo's birth mother. There was another even more depressing character called Qing Nan-qing, who YK raped (man had a serious anger problem, and when he was rejected by Nianci, he took it out on Nan-qing) and later bore Yang Guo and perished to save him, and Nianci raised YG to atone for her sin of loving YK. The character was eliminated in later revisions done by LC, and Nianci became YG's birth mother, since even LC couldn't stomach how even more revolting that would have made YK.

I watched Hana Yori Dango over the weekend which is only my 2nd foray into Japanese dramas. Since I missed the whole BBF fandom I figured I would watch the Japanese version since it is blessedly shorter.

From what I can see there are some surface differences between jdrama and kdrama that popped out to me as a jdrama novice. Things I noticed:

The Japanese seem to be much more economical in their storytelling. What they can do in 9 eps, koreans will often will fill until its 16, 20 or 24 episodes long. There is no repeat of a scene or a situation hence avoiding the draggy dejavu feeling I often get in kdramas. Every scene is there to progress the story and pretty succinct which I can't say for kdramas.

There is a lot less romance. I'm not an overly romantic person but being used to korean melodramas I found myself wondering, "Where's the romance?" There doesn't seem to be a climatic love scene and if there is some "I love you exchanges" it doesn't come in a big bang way which I actually kind of like but I could see others finding it a tad boring.

Lastly, there seems to be a lot less over the top comedy. Even the bathroom humor is more straightforward and not particularly embaressing by kdrama standards--(MNIKSS anyone?) Ahh. Koreans and their toilet humor, its so endearing once you get over the initial shock.

BTW I liked Hana Yori Dango though didn't love it. I found myself more interested in the Japanese life they represent especially Makino's family. For instance I wondered about the fried chicken skin (is this common dish to eat for dinner in Japan). By the size of their apartment, are they lower middle class, middle class or upper middle class. Why is their bathtub tall rather than long? Why does Makino sleep on a toddler bed? It was all so exotic to me and therefore a distraction to the story since the drama was secondary to my anthropological fascination with Japanese life.

@ #211, kb

I preferred both SSH and RSW in Autumn Tale and Beautiful Days, respectively, ;)
but I also defer to what ockoala said about "Minmei vs. Lisa is the first immature girlfriend vs. the mature soulmate." and Rick moving on from Minmei.

@ cingdoc

Welcome. Have you gotten to the part where he wears what I call country ajumma pants (those horrendous flowery elastic-waisted pants that rural ladies like to wear)?

yeah, those Hah-vahd grads... :P
(except ockoala's hubby, since he's also our Cal brother ;) )

@reluctantbutaddicted,

"’m thinking about using Tokyo Story to talk about modern Tokyo and the clash of modernity and tradition in the city (rural parents come to visit their kids in 1950s Tokyo)."

Cafe Lumiere is great for that.

You may want to look over some Shunji Iwai. "Hana and Alice" is a picture card of Tokyo. "Swallowtail Butterfly" or "Picnic" may be good picks.

Come to think of it, you may want to look for the Korean movie "Ad Lib Night." That one is about a urban teen who, due to circumstances, going to the countryside to attend a ceremony for one night.

@kgrl,

"The Japanese seem to be much more economical in their storytelling. What they can do in 9 eps, koreans will often will fill until its 16, 20 or 24 episodes long."

Japanese approach is tightly story-driven. The stories are still serialized, but each episode follows a more "episodic" structure. There's a theme; there's climax and clear resolution, and then often there's enough of a "stay tuned next time" to connect to the next episode. A lot of J-dorama writers cut their teeth doing detective/mystery shows, and many serious J-doramas are careful about giving you just enough information to keep you guessing.

One thing you'll notice between J-dorama and K-drama criticism is that the latter heavily focuses on actors, presence, and performances, whereas the former really emphasizes narrative and story. Part of that is due to K-dramas, even the high-class stuff like Resurrection, being written with heavy emphasis on soap-style narratives. And all soaps are there to put the actors in front, the plot being kind of a choreography for the actor to "perform." In J-dorama, the actors truly serve the story. They usually really get to shine when the writer gives them a lengthy monologue (notice how characters often talk without actually looking at the other person . . . ) or speech. For the most part, you watch a j-dorama with an eye to be informed and you'll generally be moved or laugh according to the story points, rather than how a particular actor looks at another, or how "well" an actor cries or gets mad.

A good point of comparison is to watch Shiroi Kyoto and White Tower back-to-back. You'll notice that, however similar the overall story is, the presentation still differs quite a bit, transcending mere cultural differences.

Also an important note: Hana Yori Dango is a classic idol drama . . . but it's not considered a good J-dorama. In the world of J-dorama, it would be something like a Stairway to Heaven, something of a mess, albeit a well-produced mess. In any case, for people who are frustrated or jaded with K-drama, it's really not such a bad idea to dip into J-dorama and just watch the non-idol stuff.

"Lastly, there seems to be a lot less over the top comedy. "

J-dorama comedy gets pretty broad and sometimes very dry, and there's a very strong emphasis on slapstick and group pantomine. A lot of emphasis on tension between private vs. public social manners. Something like the K-drama Evasive Inquiry Agency is pretty close to how J-dorama comedy kinda is. (Which is why EIA doesn't take for me. For me, it's like watching a J-dorama done wrong.)

K-drama comedy = OH @$@#%! J-dorama comedy = WTF.

"There doesn’t seem to be a climatic love scene and if there is some “I love you exchanges” it doesn’t come in a big bang way which I actually kind of like but I could see others finding it a tad boring."

Nobody says "I love you" in J-dorama. And adults in J-dorama often have sex before they fully work out their feelings. The emotional payoff in J-dorama usually resolves around one of the characters developing a great deal due to interactions with the other person. In other words, you'll often get a big speech that basically says "you made me a much better person." THAT is the declaration of love.

The Office Lady genre is a staple of J-dorama, and often they focus on late-20-something/30-something women who aren't married and whose marital and familial prospects are on teh wane. My Name is Kim Sam Soon would be a typical OL drama.

"By the size of their apartment, are they lower middle class, middle class or upper middle class."

Very low middle class. The original HanaDan was written during the era of Japan's 90s recession, and the Makino family was kinda the stand-in for that. The original Makino character was highly class conscious.

@hjkomo,

"I preferred both SSH and RSW in Autumn Tale and Beautiful Days"

That's interesting. I didn't know Lee Byung Hun was spelled out as RSW. ;)

@celestialorigin,

yeah it's a movie, I just thought it hit some of the criteria wanted: http://lunapark6.com/tokyo-tower-mom-and-me-and-sometimes-dad.html

Also After This Our Exile (2006) was also a very good essay on father/son relationship for a Malaysian Chinese. The movie seems authentic for that experience (but I maybe very ignorant to really tell)

@ockoala, I've heard about that NianChi not YK birthmom twist, but I didnt read that version. Honestly I labored through the book the couple times I really really tried to read it. pure torture. I did respect Mr LC less reading it, with his ideal woman an even hollower a shell than Minmei. Really fr a middle aged writer/philosopher of his caliber to blatantly fantasize/preach his ideal woman in the form of XLN, my heart is still bleeding .... What it's screaming to me is not just the young/stupid men want a mindless pretty plastic mannequin that will never grow up/old. THEY all do. I actually will love YG even MORE if he just move on with his life and hold his gugu in his heart as a fond memory a la Linghu Chong. He's good enough already flaws and smarts and all, I dun need his to be THE uber tragic romantic on top of that for THAT XLN... and instead of seeing all the depictions of the ladies as foil to build up the awesome of YG. I believed in Mr LC's brilliance, he did not have to scoop so low just to make our hero relatively great, but he insisted in making none of the females respectable in RoCH. It actually comes across to me as an ode to sexism as an honorable ideology... and that's exactly y Linghu Chong edges YG as being my fav of the fav. I loved his practicality in romance, and that takes a grown mature man with an understanding of women AS equal beings. I'm not blaming YG for the objectification of his Gugu/XLN which is essential in fueling his 'love', with his upbringing and his exp of practically screwed by any living breathing women around him. I fault Mr LC....and I wished RoCH cease to exist. I understand perfectly this is LC's attempt to write a sweeping romance, but imho the way he did all the other elements in his wuxia world was so his forte, I can do without....and he knew it, and did not attempt this elaborate fanfare in Deer, thus put a marvelous ending high note to his writing career.

See my vitriol@ RoCH spilled over to LoCH. To me MrLC overdid his venom poured over YK, he's to a point he just do random acts of pure evil, which is contradictory with how 'smart' his character supposed to be...and all this just to give ONE legit reason for HR to be an unreasonable b8tch to a boy YG. It's excruciatingly forced. Again my love for Mr LC the writer have faith in him in doing better than that and to treat his one true brilliant heroine HR a better menopause. It's almost like he's giving her a slow inhumane death of character in RoCH instead of just letting her die an honorable wuxia death a la Xiao Fung in DemiGods. again his frustrating sexism...argh!

So in LoCH the book, NianChi was a faceless wallflower of a rape victim, a dumb one and suffering fr Stockholm syndrome almost (in essence not that unlike XLN if u ask me) we dont need to feel for her since MrLC care less for her than just to path way for YG to exist and to totally screw HR or to reinforce the evilness of YK. So imo, if the author himself can for her as nth more than to facilitate the plot, y should we care more?!

But then what's interesting in LoCH08, we got a newer version of YK, a more greyish swishy swashy version with DEVELOPMENT, so at least we're given something to work on in feeling for his character, may it be hatred or sympathy... and that reflected on this NianChi as more flesh and blood in the sense that she's just some regular naive girl fallen for the wrong guy, one who has never had a steady roof over her head, who just wanted a guy and a family which DOES happen in real life, we're lucky if we can be all practical and rational in choosing whom we fall for, but we can't expect all in LC's wuxia world to be such, esp not NianChi. So true, she's this little human being who will give up on patriotism and honor and all things upright and respectable for love, but she's never set out to be some heroine anyways in the book, I'm fine with her just being a hopeless pathetic romantic without the pretense of more aspirations than her character's ever warranted. So watch on, it's not like we'll WISH we're a NianChi, it's not like I didnt pull some hair over some plot twists, but if I were in her shoes, I would be doubtful I could outsmart the big FATE.

And let me just swing a bit on Kent... he's not close to my fav, but it's super hard for me to have an order, I like each more for a certain period and they each have sth to offer that the others don't. I can't help but wonder if Kent was born 20 yrs later... he can be THE HK flowerboy/Lee JunKi. He has his acting chops, but his looks were just not in vogue back then for the leading machos. Yes, a 5 yo me hated him for Barbara's suicide, but an older me slowly understand the way love works, there's really no right or wrong...and considering his career as a 20sth just vaporized with the death of his dear one (even if as exes)...it's not totally fair on his part as well.

And Barbara+ Michael's chemistry was OFF THE ROOF in The fearless Duo and United we Stand. maybe I'm just a sucker for gorgeous ppl being goofs... lol

"Particularly if you are watching a manga based j-drama – like Nodame or Hana Kimi"

Worth mentioning -- Hana Kimi is Japanese slapstick done badly. Japanese drama comedy is dependent on editing. If the cuts come too quickly or if the camera placements are too obvious, then the punchlines fall flat. Or it just becomes a lot of noise. Nodame is a good example of Japanese slapstick done well -- it gets manic, and they use a lot of fishlense for Ueno Juri's reproduce reaction shots, but the director knows when to back off.

Abe Hiroshi is one funny dude. He has a brooding, macho presence that serves him well in dramatic and taiga, but it's his exquisite timing that made him a perennial favorite in J-dorama.

Some of Kim Sun Ah's comic stylings are similar are J-dorama-ish. One of the things she does is kinda mumble-talk and go very fast with the lines while talking to herself. Also, you'll notice that she'll do really sarcastic "cutesy", but impersonal facial reactions to mock people. Both are standard tropes in J-dorama rom-com acting. KSA blends "onos here comes ajumma!!" histrionics with the J-dorama slapstick bits, in a way I don't think anybody else really does.

My hunch is that Lee Ji Ah was a hardcore J-dorama fan, because her crazy-meets-wacky-meets--arggghhhh comedic style is straight from the J-dorama book. She's the Korean Ishihara Satomi, just always "on" and ready to splat herself with a cream pie to get laughs.

Now, if you want to see a comedy with just kerazy camera placements, check out Kimataku's Hero. It's like Conspiracy in the Court elaborate. Cameras on the ceiling. Cameras below the tables. And the cuts sometimes come off fast to enhance its absurdist, whimsical spin on the mystery-meets-OL romance. It's a bit a 70s American sitcom on steroids.

Another important difference between J-dorama and K-drama is that more J-doramas use single-camera placements. You'll notice that, especially in first episodes of higher end dramas, there's elaborate tracking shots (esp. following cars) and jump cuts. That's one of the innate advantages with only needing to produce 45 minutes of show per week and only 10 episodes per show -- you get THAT much more time for post-production.

"Then there are the idol dramas, I’d put Hana Yori Dango in with those. "

And that's another difference between J-dorama and other Asian dramas. The "idol drama" isn't a dirty word. Many classic shows, like Heaven's Coins, Beautiful Life, Byakuyako, and so on were "idol dramas." Nowadays, when J-dorama fans complain about the idol drama, it's really the proliferation of idol-manga/shoujo dramas at the expense of other shows.

"And you get more of the “outward” style of acting than the “inward” – which often looks like mugging but is usually done for effect by a particular character."

Very true. J-dorama acting (as is Mainlander acting) is fairly representational. Line deliveries are are key. K-drama acting relies so much on relationship with camera. Of course, if you have both, then all the better.

I often get that vibe whenever I'm going back and forth between taiga and sageuk. When I'm watching taiga, even among the top guys, it's a very representational style, not unlike watching Shakespeare. And, yes, I know in sageuk they do the klingon/guttural cough-through-stache bellow with the lines, but so much of it is still about presence and relationship with camera.

"You’ll rarely if EVER see anyone in a j-drama say I love you or I’m crazy about you."

And this kinda reflects the culture as well. Saying "I love you" is not all that common in Japanese culture, even among married couples. Domestic despair is kinda a pervasive trope/stereotype in the modern Japanese family. That is why junai (pure love) movies transcend teen audiences and really hit the housewife contingency in Japan in a way that it doesn't in Taiwan or Korea. Also, why adultery movies (such as Tokyo Tower) do phenomenal business.

This goes back to the Hallyu effect in Japan. Basically, the Japanese housewives love K-drama because they see example after example of men expressing their love to women, in terms of affection, words of desire, and above all telling and showing the female lead -- again and again -- I LOVE YOU. In a culture where even their J-romances don't have it, the notion of a truly cavalier romantic (which is practically 99% of all K-drama) is almost radical. And it even pervades the historical drama, where a Hwang Ji-ni or Damo is as intense with the melo-romance fireworks as a typical trendy.

Happy New Year to Javabean and all DB OTers!

Finally back to the real world after a week away. In many ways it's great to be without internet especially for doing drama marathon without interruption. Finished Tamra - really like it and fully appreciate the love of Team Park Kyu! I'm in that same boat as you can guess. It is indeed Im Ju Hwan's breakout performance. His Park Kyu is so Darcy-like - arrogant yet vulnerable - that melts and breaks your heart at the same time. (Sorry, Javabean, I do remember your warning of not doing the Darcy/P&P comparison lightly.)

I also started Sons of Sol's Pharmacy. I knew I'd like it and I did! Only up to Ep 10 though.

There are so many posts to catch up, and oh the 2009 drama review.... And the new dramas... which one to watch?? I wish I had a 48-hour day so that 24 hours are for living as a 'normal human being interacting with real persons' and another 24 hours for watching dramas and hanging out with you gals and guys here. Javabean, I'm afraid you have created a world that is more addictive than the kdramas :)

I must also say what a plesant surprise to read all these Louis Cha novel and TVB drama discussions. My dearly mom was a big LC fan who read those novels when they were serialised in (the pro-mainland China) newspapers, that was before Mr Cha turned from politically left to central and set up his own newspaper, the credible Ming Pao. I grew up reading his novels and finished all of them in my teen years. Many a nights I was so hooked in his Wuxia world that I read them overnight under a blanket before going to school with panda eyes. (I guess my kdrama watching stamina was established in those years.)

My teen and twenty years were also filled with the golden era TVB dramas, and no one - ever - can replace Chow Yun Fat as my all-time-idol. My favorite LC novel is The Smiling Proud Wanderer because its hero is a non-hero and a true romance guy! CYF is certainly born to play it. Lastly, I've been intrigued by the LoCR08 for sometime - curious to know how Ariel Lin plays Huang Rong. I love her Xiang qing in ISWAK who is pole opposite to HR. You gals confirm for me now that the DVD is worth a buy.

Thought this was hilarious. Park Shin Hye and Tak Jae Hoon in a haunted house. with subs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO_6UgAdcKA

@ 241 belleza

Is Tak Jae Hoon the doctor oppa in City Hall???

hello from snowy seoul!! we just saw what my seoul friends say was the worst snow they've seen in 10 years. lucky me :) i was able to snag one Pig Rabbit yesterday in Myeongdong last night but no luck with the pin yet ha. they play 2PM, Big Bang and Brown Eyed Girls all over the place. No complaints here hehe. Just got back from this cafe in Itaewon that's owned by some actor/rapper/restauranteur famous for.... being gay i guess? for those of you who watched Assorted Gems, he was the bald PD named Hong Sa Hyun. cool thing was, he was there sitting 2 tables away from us. so i guess that counts as a pseudo-celeb sighting for me :) also took 2 hours to find the JYP building that's in some random back alleyway.... a pilgrimage of sorts if you will haha.

alright, off to plan my last full day in seoul!!!

Happy Belated New Years to all my OT friends!!!! i miss ya guys lots!

@ samsooki : maturation vs character growth

Do you really think Gong Yoo doesn't mature over Coffee Prince's story arc? I'm surprised b/c I would have said that development of character is one of the things I like most in k-drama. CP's Han Kyul (sp?) starts out an arrogant rich playboy playing on his boyish charm but petulantly refusing to undertake much responsibility in his life. Through the episodes he reviews his own assumptions about himself (particularly his sexuality, but also what kind of work he can find satisfying, what kind of work environment he finds stimulating--eg from the starting assumption that he likes to work all by himself to realizing he likes to work in and can lead a team), and realizes that responsibility is making him like himself much more, through the encouragement of Eun Chan who "believes in him" long before, of course, he believes in himself. She doesn't change much, only finds a vocation where one was lacking, but he matures considerably and is at the end quite a different character with only his boyish charm remaining intact.

I see CP as perhaps the prime example of good character growth. Even the cousin grows somewhat, in that he's forced to reconsider his expectations of his girlfriend and of life and to amend them to what he can realistically expect of a person so different from himself... though she also compromises fairly radically. With the 2nd couple the growth is less fleshed out, but cousin and Han Kyul have that great conversation about why women don't want to get married, b/c they have to give up so much of themselves to conform to men's expectations. So Han Kyul, who is quite selfish and a bit instant-gratification-without-much-effort in his approach to life, offers to wait 2 years while Eun Chan studies barista-ing (side note: TWO YEARS? I guess there's more to coffee making than I'd thought), and agrees to one more year, too.

To me it's the growth and development which occur logically through the experience of the story which made CP such a great drama, and which I am always looking for in the next great drama. And which is why I liked City Hall so much--the characters develop, realize capacities that they either had ignored in themselves or didn't know they had lurking, they do things and make decisions, take paths, which surprise themselves, and find themselves able to rise to occasions they had not expected to face. YB has less, though some, of the growth (I would argue that both GMN and HTK grow in character, though GMN maybe grows more in experience than character), but was just so much fun I could love it anyway.

@ mookie and epyc

Wow, I thought I was in the minority - but now we have THREE unanimous votes for fave LC novel (Smiling Proud Wanderer) AND fave LC hero - the too cool for his times Linghu Chong. @ epyc - Chow Yun-fat seemed almost too much to play him, but he never got too big for the role, and rather, the role reflected CYF's inherent movie star coolness. It was perfect casting. If Ren Ying-ying was played by Carina Lau, then the version would have been matchless.

Actually, all Five Tigers were (for the most part, except for the casting fo Tony Leung as Zhang Wu-zyi in Dragon Sabre) perfectly cast as a LC hero/anti-hero. The same can't be said for any subsequent remake, whether TVB's own or the recent spate from Mainland China. @ mookie, I never thought of it that way, but Kent's brand of metrosexual super pretty boy image really was too early for his time. What happened really was tragic for everyone all around - kinda reminds me of the k-pop scene when an idol gets eviscerated depending on the general mood of the populace over real and perceived shenanigans.

@ epyc - I can now safely say - Go Buy The LoCH 2008 and watch it! Umpteenth remakes by the mainland later, it had finally happened, they got something right! And really really subversive yet wonderful to watch. Let me explain.

I'm now up to episode 8, and I have NEVER seen an LoCH version move this quickly (this is the 3rd version I've watched). Guo Jing's entire childhood in Mongolia is eliminated except for one scene, and then he's back in the Central Plains. The fathers story is told in flashbacks throughout, except for the attack by the Song army that leads to the tragedy.

I've always been bored senseless by the GJ in Mongolia portions (its the wretched curse of the child actor/growing up scenes - essential for character development and plot, but really, just delays the arrival of the adult versions everyone wanted to see - Ja Myung Go got KILLED by this, I was ready to check out of that drama). However, this version moves so fast, it may actually make new viewers a bit confused. While LoCH does not have the ridiculous amounts of characters that make your head spin like in Demi-Gods, its still may need a bit of hand holding to get started.

My son LOVES this drama (I knew he'd be a child of my own heart, wuxia is in his blood!) and gets begs me to watch a few minutes a day. The fighting choreography in LoCH 08 is top-notch, serious HK TVB quick, fast, clean, with less on reliance on goofy special effects and more hand to hand combat. I love it, wuxia choreography in all other remakes have involved lots of wind machine hair billowing and really weird staging, so Mr. Director man, PLEASE make sure whomever is the action director in LoCH 08 be allowed to choreograph all future wuxia dramas. It's that good, seriously, I'm impressed. LoCH 08 is rekindling my love of wuxia dramas (I may even want to watch Chinese Paladin),

Back to the story - like @ mookie said, this is a revisionist tale in that one-half of the story (Yang Kang's story) is changed in a critical manner. I'm only at the scene when YK's parents (finally) die for reals, and thus far, I'm actually okay with the revision that YK accepted his true parentage and heritage and make a decision to be a good person. We know this isn't going to last, but still, makes it much more palatable that Mu Nianci would love him, rather than loving a genuine no-good son of a gun, just because he's handsome and charming (that would be my weakness).

My lone quibble is - this is fast becoming the Yang Kang story, and my hubby asked, is YK the lead, and I go "No way, he's the bad dude", it confused him so. I had to explain: the title of the drama, Legend of the Condor-Shooting Hero, refers to GUO JING, and hubby was like, "that doofy guy?" and I'm like "yeah, that doofy guy, he's a really good man, for reals, and you'll see that he embodies all the traits that are important to live an honorable existence." Hee, I'm so into the wulin spirit these days.

And Ariel Lin as Huang Rong - I cannot say it enough, this is her role of a lifetime, because it truly cements her as one of the best actresses of your generation. Liu Yifei has thus far butchered her craft of acting in the Demi-Gods and RoCH remakes, but Ariel is as close to LC's description of Huang Rong as I've ever seen on screen. And she wears one adorable yellow outfit after another, just perfect (I could NEVER understand why Athena wore green throughout the LoCH 1994 remake - hello, her names means Yellow Velvet, get thee a new costume designer). And that fact that Ariel can play two characters (Hsian-qing and Huang Rong) who are as polar-opposites as ever in the history of mankind, and make you love that girl on screen - Ariel is now my newest actress love, she rocks so hard she makes me dizzy with love. Her HR can turn from beating the crap out of YK for being mean to GJ, and then cooing over GJ with the blink of an eye - she's a maniac controlled by loving the single most undying pillar of goodness, Guo Jing.

I kinda wished they TW-idolized this version of LoCH completely, i.e cast Joe Cheng as Yang Kang (OMG, can you see it, the insouciance, the inner torment, the apathy, the vulnerable coldness, I dies if Joe was cast, and Jiro Wang as Guo Jing, eeep, so perfect, he's dorky cute with that nice guy charm down pat). It would be an ISWAK reunion where I am actively in love with all three leads. In my dreams, of course. :-)

@epyc,

"Is Tak Jae Hoon the doctor oppa in City Hall???"

Haha, no. He's a regular entertainer in the variety show circuit.

"I’m surprised b/c I would have said that development of character is one of the things I like most in k-drama. "

Ehhh . . . in K-drama, it tends to be very compartmental (that is, about social relations.) The development of character is usually tied into relationships with people (i.e. person becomes better son/daughter to parents, person is more responsible in their work environment, etc.) There often isn't a specific set of lessons or themes, or an overall "awakening" or "coming-of-age" arc associated with the character. When such does happen in a show, you really notice it.

This is kinda due to most Korean trendies being built around melodrama or screwball narratives. And so character development is relationship development; sometimes, not even that. Sometimes, it's just a narrative built around substantiation of desire. One character -- usually the one with power -- realizes they want the other person. But in order to get the other person, they have to do A, B, and C. The fun is in A, B, and C, which involve all sorts of class/social games, assertion of sex appeal, etc. Other times, you actually have a true battle of wills, personality clashes, etc. In those stories, you have a dilemna of real difference, and then the characters have to "synthesize" into a new bond. Usually major character development occurs, and those are usually considered the "good" Korean trendies.

Coffee Prince is one such show. There is a difference of (perceived) sexual preference, and so Eun Chan and Han Kyul go through various trials around the issue of gender relations in order to congregate. There's other stuff there too, but unfortunately the writers didn't choose to pursue that after the relationship worked out.

About the first 60-70% of YAB is a coming-of-age narrative. In that sense, this drama is really unique. Go Mi Nyu falling in love with Han Tae Kyung coincides essentially with her kinda growing up and deciding who she really is. She learns lessons about friendship, responsibility, and of course what falling in love is. And for the most part, each episode kinda encapsulates one aspect of her growth process, which is reinforced through voice-overs and so on. The last 20-30% of YAB goes back to the normal K-drama "substantiation of desire." Basically, we wait until HTK wakes up and realizes he is meant to be with her, but before he gets there, he needs to go through his melodrama A, B, and C points. It enables the show to hit the right fireworks toward the end, but I did feel that it kinda weakened HTK-GMN as a couple. Usually in the coming-of-age story, we're waiting for the big payoff for the character's growth development. That is, we're waiting for said person to give us the Big Speech or a few big speeches whereby we can collate the great changes of the character.

Now, it would have been interesting if YAB's point of view was flipped, so that we were mostly privy to HTK developing feelings, reacting to GMN/SW, and going through lesson after lesson to rebuild himself as a person. That's kinda how the J-HYD was done through the first season.