great powers of observation.
thanks for continuing to stimulate dialogue.

I'm glad that sex is being more open in these dramas! though I personally could care less for Sex in the City type shows (SITC made me gag, not for the sex or the plot, but for the women in the show). What I do like is how Coffee Prince is changing things up a bit.

What drew me to Coffee Prince is it shows that love has no gender, which is what I also like about the Japanese and Taiwanese dramas, Hana Kimi- You simply fall in love with the person you are most attracted to on a physical and emotional level. HG fell in love with EC even he thought she was a boy, it truly shows that love has no bounds.

I also love how it touched on women being more independent (such as EC being the head of her family, or wanting to wait to get married until she has settled with her life and is making a general income so she doesn't have to live off of HG). What got me the most though was, though EC is more conservative and thinks you don't have sex until after marriage, even she is human and understands that you can be with the person you love married or not.

Great post!

-Jamie

kdramas do generally tend to hold back a lot about sex but the movies are far more open about it. The same actors who appear passionate in movies hold back in dramas. I don't know why that is, but that's just the way it appears.

Actually, I know why that is... I'm sure there's censorship in Korean T.V. just like there is in American T.V.

But as an American (well, kinda) viewer, it is quite frustrating to watch a supposedly passionate couple kiss like they are 5 year olds... or cold fish.

It is nice to see Han Gul and Yu Ju because for starters, they are both in their thirties and for years, had no plans to get married so it would make no sense to not have sex. What would they be waiting for?

Other dramas have pre-marital sex (Queen of the Game but they end up with a baby), Dal Ja's Spring and Kim Sam Soon (although they made it comedic), Lovers etc etc so pre-marital sex in dramas still not unchartered waters.

Sarah, this is a very interesting post. I'd never heard of/watched the shows you described, but in my time with K-drama I've noticed mainstream shows becoming bolder regarding the physical side of love. Coming from a culture that is "hypocritically" (I guess that might/might not be too strong a word) conservative in its silver screen too, I can completely understand what you mean that its not all representative of the actual population. Just because it takes 6-7 episodes for our leads to peck each other's cheeks leads to the presumption that in Korea (or India) you'd never see a couple kiss! Which is, ofcourse, a complete misconception, and there are instances when people get a true cultural shock because they don't find the naive nation they expected. On the other hand, with the American screen already open about sexuality with shows like SATC, or Will & Grace, Girlfriends, etc., there's a LARGE idea that most Americans are sex-crazed and continually making out in the streets. HA. Its actually what a lot of new students from conservative countries expect to find here. I think thats a very fascinating aspect of culture and media...how it gets broadcasted in a movie or a show can completely change the perception of the world.
Back to Korea, I think with shows like CP, k-drama PDs are testing the waters and realizing that the culture's ready for a more candid view of sex and love too. I'm not sure if it created any kind of controversy in Korea (did it?). When I started watching, the climax and end of the show was often a kiss. Now, as shows get more realistic, and relationships are better developed like in MNIKSS, "skinship ;)" is more present and nicely done.
With Bollywood in the past few years (if you're interested!), there's been a kind of frantic craze to catch up to the Western world, in trying to talk about sex and fitting it in awkwardly and often vulgarly. Sex and conversations about sex are still depicted very crudely or unnaturally in a large part of Indian cinema (and not at all in the starkly conservative Indian dramas), which really disappoints me. Passion and emotion can be portrayed more gracefully, like done in CP perhaps. And it can be discussed with more wit and realism, like SATC, or, based on what you described, Romance Hunters. Regardless of those opinions, there's atleast a similar effort to shake off the false cloak of "we don't touch fingers until marriage" kind of idea that the world has. I think thats healthy and important, to realize that people everywhere, in cultures like ours, are all aware of the physical aspect of love and maintain a healthy, natural sexuality.
Thanks for that insight, Sarah!

funny thing is, this morning I was also wondering how sex was perceived in the korean culture ... because dramas never seem to explore that side of relationships...its all about the emotional part, but i just gotta wonder if those people (characters) aren't sexualy frustrasted with all the talking...I mean in "Exhibitions of fireworks" the character played by Han chae Young was with her boyfriend for almost a decade and they had never, ever ...ever... e.v.e.r...had sex...I mean I don't know a man that would go 2 months without ...but then again people do say "you can't miss something you've never had," but i doubt that goes for anybody over the age of 17-especially for boys-... Its good to see that there are dramas such as Coffee Prince, that are not afraid of talking about sex, though it they don't take it lightly...But i do admire that side of Korean culture... Not the fact that the media is trying to portray an asexual kind of a society, but the fact that sex is not something they take lightly... thanks for sharing this J-Beans

I thought Koreans were probably puritanical about sex until I saw Kim Sung Soo's debut movie about love and sex (I forget the name). :O I nearly had a heart attack with its extraordinarily frank portrayal of sex...

In the time it took for me to post my comment, it became moot lol

I have often wondered if kdramas are reflective of society or if they are didactic...attempting to "teach" viewers how to behave (I hope that doesn't sound too strong)...they seem to be family-centric at least in terms of marital conditions/parental approval for marriage...they also seem to emphasize self-sacrifice (most often, it seems, for the sake of family)

Perhaps they are trying to get the largest audience possible? Because my mom and her friends (all in the mid-50s) won't watch shows that are heavy on the sex and intimate relationships. It's one of the main reasons none of them watch American TV and movies and stick to Asian ones.

And while the younger audience might not be offended, they aren't turned off when sex isn't portrayed.

So by being more conservative, the show can attract a larger "family" audience.

Romance Hunter and Hyena both sound interesting. I can't find a Wiki page for Romance Hunter, so maybe it's not subbed by fans? I hope it's also available on Clubbox

"Rather than Korean society being puritanical, I just assumed that it was due to a deeply developed sense of social courtesy/sensibility to not talk about sex;especially in polite company. And, that sense governs the extent of discussing any sexual issues in the dramas because the drama has to be polite and courteous to the viewer. Discussing sex would be tantamount to talking about your athlete’s foot at the dinner table. I’m not so familiar with Korean society, but I’m pretty sure that it’s true for Chinese society."

Auntie Mame makes a good point. I think in a way its trying to be more polite and not talk about it too much about in public. Im thinking these dramas are made by those, maybe coz they want help people open up and introduce a more open view and test waters. Its a topic for them to be kept more private? I also like the fact that in Kculture, sez isnt taken that lightly and for it to be shown in a different aspect makes it different from other cultures. But i think audiences are becoming more mature about it, i can also name 'What's Up Fox' as one of those risque dramas, after the steamy scene from Lovers as well. But I agree with Sarah, that like dramas like Samsoon and Dalja it was handled well. That's better to see I think.

I never really saw it that way, but i did wonder why in some dramas the "LOVE "scenes were a bit dull, or conservative!!! but after cp, when i see han gyul, and eun chan do what they do, im more like WOW!!! and that is kinda cool to see after so many dramas that leave me with a "That's it?"!!! so im exicited to see change, and maybe that's why im more addicted to cp because it eases my curiousity!!!...
You know how to hit a good topic...that's why im never bored!! Thank you!!! Keep blogging!

#15 "Gail -- gramps, is that you?"

Hindi nga!. The timestamps give a clue that lolo and I are several zones apart. When lolo last posted it was around 2.00 am UK time. I'm actually the wrong side of that apparently crucial "mid-50s" age-band where, according to one other comment here, people have forgotten all about sex and don't want to be reminded about it in their TV viewing, so by that hour I am safely in bed and presumably asleep. What else is there for relics like me to do there?

I had never thought Koreans were puritanical about sex regardless of how they were portrayed in the dramas because life just ain't like that in modern society. So when i watched unmoving kisses (as it it was put on pause mode!) while the camera pans 360 deg (lovers in Paris LOL, eventhough I love Park Shin Yang) and almost very few scenes that indicated the couple ever consumated their relationship.... I said, hey, this just ain't real, whoever kisses like that and when a couple love each other so much, how can they go with many YEARS without a sexual relationship - so I just take it as they do but the dramas just doesn't show it - and with that my heart and mind can accept it and move on!

KUDOS to "LOVERS" drama for being one of the leaders to show a lonnnnnnngggggggggggg passionate kiss that ended in bed.....and now Coffee Prince..... to me these scenes makes the dramas more realistic and natural......AJA

#14 Marzy "talking about your athlete’s foot at the dinner table"

Maybe that would be quite an innocent topic in Korea. One of the nice things about the shift to HDTV is you get to read all the shopfronts in the background (or you do if like me you're a text maniac). And lo and behold, it turns out that in Seoul there are branches of a sportshoe chain called, in all linguistic innocence, "Athlete's Foot". I thought those little shopsign gems were confined to France, where they are a constant source of amusement to Anglophones.

Hey! Great comments as usual and the speed of your posts continues to amaze me. Total non sequiter but didja hear that they're making a Hana Yori Dango movie to air sometime in summer 2008? Everyone from the original cast is coming back and from what little they've said, it seems like they might be following the Paris/Shizuka's wedding storyline that ended the manga not that long ago...

sorry to disagree with the rest...but what about those who're just not into pre-marital sex whatever the case is...those who still fear God and believe that He actually exists...I'm glad when many kdramas actually respect this group of people.

I actually love how asian dramas are more conservative and innocent when it comes to the love relationship between a man and a woman. Seriously, I've seen enough of those American shows where they would make out and jump on the bed in almost all scenes/episodes whatever. That's why I like watching asian dramas more, it's not extreme like the media over here.

sorry no offense, but about pre-marital sex by the name of the temporary emotion/feeling so-called "love", do you seriously think it's lovely, honourable and pleasing to the conscience?

I understand the viewpoints of all the commentators. Is the lack of showing any sexual/physical aspects of a relationship because of 1) censorship, 2) respect for the audience, 3) desire to teach the audience a lesson, or whatever else. But how are we to really believe that a couple is madly in love when all they do is kiss, and for the most part, kiss really badly too?! I mean, of most of the kdramas that I have see, the girlfriend and boyfriend often kiss like they hate each other (just a peck on the lips, really stiff, no movement of the mouth, lips, tongue, etc.). If kdramas really want to portray the realness of any relationships, they need to show that a pair of madly in love couple doesn't just give each other just a peck on the lips. And that it sometimes involves sex!

Instead of stepping rashly on any of the mines currently lying around this area, let me offer a short extract from a genre that flourished briefly in the 1980s, the English Campus novel. The scene is the English Midlands in early 1986.

Vic Wilcox was restively watching television with his younger son, Gary, in the lounge of their five-bedroomed, four-lavatoried, neo-Georgian house on Avondale Road. [...] You saw things on television nowadays that would have been under-the-counter pornography when he was a lad. It made family viewing an anxious and uncomfortable business. "You don't want to watch any more of this, do you?" he said to Gary, with affected casualness.
"It's all right,", said Gary, slumped in an armchair, without taking his eyes from the screen.
"Let's see what's on the other channels".
"No, Dad, don't!"
Overriding Gary's protests, Vic played a short scale on the buttons of the remote control. The other channels were showing: a documentary about sheepdogs, a repeat of an American detective series about a murdered prostitute, and another feature film, the hero and heroine of which were already in bed together and wrestling energetically under the covers. Vic quickly switched back to the first channel, where the girl was now slowly unbuttoning her blouse in front of a mirror while the man looked lasciviously over her shoulder. It was only a matter of time, Vic thought, before he scored a pornographic jackpot, simulated copulation on all four channels simultaneously.

David Lodge, Nice Work (1988)

Four channels. Those were the days. Nowadays, with more like 400, the jackpot might be more difficult to score (but that's partly because 100 or so of them are shopping channels or suchlike, keener on faux suede than simulated sex). But still, this is the general idea of where Korean TV is headed. So enjoy its current state of relative innocence while you can, those of you who do.

I believe media can dictate a whole new level of attitude/behavior among us audience. But I also believe that we are smarting up. It's a symbiotic relationship. That's why ratings exists. Networks rely on them. So if the success of Samsoon, Dalja's Spring, Coffee Prince and the likes reflects the kind of society Korea is in right now then Koreans have nothing to worry about being misconstrued as puritans. Korea wouldn't be called progressive for nothing.

"he takes offense to how his girlfriend won’t “swallow” — insinuating that spitting means she doesn’t love him"

javabeans, I think that for the sake of all those anxious to preserve their wholesome image of you and your blog, you should have explained that this is a reference to those scenes, strangely common in KDrama, of semi-synchronised tooth-cleaning. The issue being whether it shows more consideration to bravely swallow the toothpaste when using someone else's bathroom facilities than to spit into their nice clean basin.

twreckx

what an excellent point! I also like that about kdramas (the 'play'). If I had my way, there would be both. A long build up before deep kisses etc. I guess the trouble I have is that there always seems to be more touching before a couple gets together. The added complication that CP had was that EC was treated as a guy for most of the series, which lends itself to more physical play...but after her gender is revealed, HK starts treating her differently (as is to be expected)

What excellent comments! Great post, javabeans...

First off: No, i don't think the viewers generalize Koreans' (or anyone's) sexual behaviours based on what we see on the screen (big or small). I like to believe that we are more than mere poriferans absorbing X-radiation emitting from our television sets/computer monitors. I do realize that, with anything, there is considerable variations in beliefs and actions. However, i do notice if the actions do not feel natural to the progression of the relationship or seem removed from the normal behaviours that human beings (no matter what continent you are on) should exhibit. All I'm asking for is to make it "natural", people... if sex is not pivotal to the scene then skip it, but if nudity (gasp!) is essential to the plot, then go for it! But whatever it is, do it tastefully and gracefully. And give the audience some respect: we are neither sexually ignorant or sex-deprived (maybe?), so make it appropriate. Isn't art (not that i am saying that Kdrama=art -or not art) basically a summation of actions and reactions? We are bound to differ on how things should be done as well as our interpretations of the results.

It is true that contents of public television are restricted due to cultural differences, respects, censorship, ratings, sponsorship, etc... Without cable, we would be bound by mainstream ideas and conventions. I'm one for pushing the envelopes, but i don't think it is appropriate to impose my beliefs on others. Thank god for HBO. Hooray for diversity and individualism, yeah?

twreckx, as a fan of the classics myself, I've always had a sneaking suspicion that what is not show is more sexy then what is. Maybe because the classic movies leave it to the imagination, more. Remembering the passionate kisses in the More the Merrier, you know what its about without it being spelled out.

I like that about korean dramas. Its one of the reasons I started watching them, aside from being a manhwa Full House fan. I can watch them with my family without feeling uncomfortable, or wondering if I have to turn the channel so my little brother doesn't see it. I also agree with Plue and Fay. I think one of the unfortunate things about the women's movement is that it helped promote sex without marriage. I think pre-martial sex has created so many problems in societies. Sex is important not just as an illustration of love, but also as means of showing commitment between people and as a baby maker.

Gramps,
My curiosity got the better of me so I'm using this medium to ask you a question that has nothing to do with this particular post by Sarah. How does a man from UK even learn about the existence of kdramas let alone be such an avid fan? My husband also hails from UK (now in California) and just shakes his head when I'm watching kdramas and bemoans the loss of "wifey" to this non-sensical entertainment.
Amy

it was a very interesting read.
I have not seen any of those dramasa but especially Hyena sounds interesting but I have not found it anywhere.
The relationships in Coffee prince are nice because it is so natural, they are just like any normal couple.

#29 Auntie Mame -- "how, and if any, Confucian doctrines impact the scope of the dramas"

I see nobody's snapped at this particular bait. Not surprising really, because it's a BEEEG issue. I don't know nearly enough to dare to attempt a contribution myself, but maybe one pointer might help.

What we're really talking about here is not Confucianism of the kind(s) found elsewhere in Asia, but the specific, systematic and protracted shaping of Korean society and culture along "Neo-Confucian" lines during the Choson dynasty. For an expert view, with some real historical/sociological/anthropological meat, particularly on the cumulative effect, and the abiding legacy, of legislation on the position of women (and hence the bearing on the sort of view of these dramas were seeing here), try Martina Deuchler, The Confucian Transformation of Korea: A Study of Society and Ideology, Harvard 1995. Still in print, in the library of virtually any College anywhere that covers East Asian Studies and in many larger city libraries too. Readily available secondhand for $20 or less. Not exactly a poolside read, but the prose is sprightly enough and no drier than the subject matter sometimes demands.

Sure. From what little I have found about it on the Internet, Dasepo Naughty Girls sounds interesting.

Sounds like you just made us an Offer We Can't Refuse. (AKA "Every TV series You'd Like to Know, but Always been Afraid to Ask...")
And #35 Amyable -- Craving javabeans' pardon for yet again talking behind her back, though I suppose her remark just now sort of gives me advance absolution, if you look at the last part of http://www.dramabeans.com/kdrama-scripts/#comment-5463 I think you'll discover how this particular fan got hooked.

:)

And why "including Africa?" As in, why single it out?

I'm a Nigerian girl in the diaspora who loves watching kdramas and I know many other Africans who enjoy kdramas as well. In the 90s, older Mexican telenovelas (Wild Rose, The Rich Also Cry etc etc) were very big in Africa so kdrama is almost like an extension of them. Also, back in the 80s, bollywood was very big in Africa.

Your blog is quite popular so it only makes sense that English speaking Africans (especially) who check out kdramas online would come across and visit it.

Although, taking a different tack: there are statistically-grounded reasons for remarking on the fact that there are visitors from the African continent; just as statistics can help explain the rather disappointing fact that there are no readers of this blog yet recorded in Antarctica.

Let's look at the world in terms of IP addresses currently allocated. No less than 55% of those are in the US and Canada alone. The whole of Asia, by far the most populous continent, has around 14% of all addresses, while Africa has just 1.5% or thereabouts. Hence the mild surprise, but considerable delight, at finding that even in this numerically very small proportion of all the potential visitors to this blog there are javabeans and KDrama fans. The percentage of addresses located in Antarctica comes in with two zeroes after the decimal point, so it may take a while yet for those lonely folk in desolate research stations to reveal that KDrama is really what keeps them going through that long winter night. But looked at another way, even though the number of IP addresses assigned to Antarctica is tiny, the population of the continent is so small that there are about 4 IP addresses per person. Such relative saturation levels aren't achieved even in Silicon Valley. So give Antarctica a bit more time, and who knows? Since CB downloads over typical 512kb/s satellite links would mean a single episode would take a very long time to arrive, javabeans' concise but content-rich recaps would be all the more valued.

The tables and maps behind this summary are at http://www.ipligence.com/worldmap/ Incidentally, outfits like this which, for a price, will tell you to within a specified distance exactly where your incoming clients are situated simply from their IP address, lie behind the way that advertisers whose popup adds are triggered by sites such a Megaupload are able to send out images of somewhat underdressed and desperate-looking young ladies allegedly living in your home town and eager to meet you right now at the flip of a credit card.

"The percentage of addresses located in Antarctica comes in with two zeros after the decimal point, so it may take a while yet for those lonely folk in desolate research stations to reveal that KDrama is really what keeps them going through that long winter night."

LMAO :) :) :)

Right you are!

Javabeans,
It's all good :D

I don't think it's really about being interested in Korean culture but about enjoying the entertainment. Plus, there are some similarities between the Korean culture and many African cultures especially in familial relations. For example, the whole Oppa/Unni/Noona/Hyung thing. Well, while the younger generation generally finds it passe to call their elder siblings anything but their names, the practice is still very much alive with the older generations, referring to their elder siblings as either "Sister" or "Sister Toyin." Well, by my generation, I refer to the younger city dwellers who like to think of themselves as somewhat westernized. Also, similar to the Ajumma/Ajusshi thing, you refer to older friends/acquaintances/family friends as Uncle/Aunty even though they aren't blood relatives.

Also, I remember when I started watching daily dramas and they had elaborate traditional wedding scenes where the groom's family would go over the bride's family with gifts. Of course, in Africa, the details vary with the culture but in general, but we have something similar.

Even the importance of parental approval when one's choosing a life partner isn't something foreign.

One of the reasons Bollywood was widely watched in many countries in Africa was because it was "clean." You could easily watch the movies with your entire family with no fear of stumbling onto a sex scene. The same 'cleanliness' generally exists in kdramas so it may explain why some Africans might enjoy them.

So even though the characters look different and speak a different language, there are many ways we can relate to them. Plus, who doesn't like a good story? But of course, the more I watch kdramas, the more I'm interested in Korea as a whole.

But I can understand your amazement with foreigners enjoying your shows. Nollywood (Nigerian movie industry) blew up in the last ten years or so and not only is it replacing Hollywood in many ways throughout Africa, it's also huge in the Caribbean (especially Jamaica). But if I were to hear it was huge in some other places, I'd be shocked especially as I have a love-hate relationship with it.

Gramps, since 1.5% of IP address are in Africa, maybe it'll be shocking if 40% of her visitors were from the continent, no? But 0.05% shouldn't be too shocking. :)

Auntie Mame -- "an inter-disciplinary college course"

and throwing in calculus and its applications (see CP Ep Ch16 comments re EC's educational requirements for barista-dom) and now statistical inference. CW - hats off you you, you are quite right about the non-shocking nature of the order of percentage African visitors represent. I had thought the only person I had to be wary of before indulging in statistical bluff was my son, who does stats for a living but certainly doesn't read KDrama blogs.

interesting! are Hyena or Romance Hunter subbed by a group?

@gramps...

good points there.. tagalog ka ba?

Korean culture's conception is greatly affected by Kdramas (especially countries who can't watch tv shows or media stuff directly from Korea like here in the Philippines just to name one). We have massive misconceptions about its being so conservative on 'sensitive' issues like this.
this post helps a lot. thanks JB.. i'm not so fond of putting up comments but everytime i surf the net i go to ur site always.. as in..

God bless.. :D